Fall of Man

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In 2024 there is supposed to be a crisis in masculinity which has been well documented and not necessary to repeat. But in point of fact this crisis did not start with feminism in the 1950s as often spouted. It started long ago, in the dawn of the industrial age and the beginning of the modern era.

The historical search for the primal origins of neurosis led Freud to the unavoidable conclusion that neurosis was in the beginning a prehistoric moral dilemma which, over the course of mental evolution, eventually evolved into guilt, discontent, and neurosis as modern-day phylogenetically endowed facts of life. Freud (1930) made it clear that the source of man's biological and cultural evolutionary progress--self-denial--was also responsible for the tragedy of the human condition, namely, repression, eternal psychic ambivalence, and chronic mental illness. He believed that neurosis began, as the philosopher Nietzsche (1887) exclaimed, with the "reduction of the beast of prey 'man' to a tame and civilized animal...". For both Freud and Nietzsche, the cause of the human tragedy was not merely the fall from Nature, but the inexorable knowledge that Man's denial of his biological heritage was the very basis for being human.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6681416 ... ng%20human.

Hmm that is interesting, but idk to be the most intelligent species on earth maybe we could still do better, cause sometimes we all just act like a bunch of animals. And well to be fair that is what we are, we are just a somewhat different kind of animal than all the other wild animals on this planet...Idk I think maybe we need to accept we are just an evolution of animal we aren't special we just evolved into what we are now. In the grand scheme of things we don't matter we're one tiny speck of dust in the universe.

the rise of guilt, discontent, and neurosis in modern-day males in what Freud stated is repression of male biological imperative to hunt, compete and engage in warfare. Progress and modernity means we males must compromise our biological drivers in order to conform to social norms. Physical work, Sport, alcohol and hobbies like recreational fishing or hunting provides an outlet for male propensities for aggression, but as Festinger says, we carry opposite characteristics concurrently of social conformity of being "gentlemen" while at the same time trying to be males as programmed in our Y chromosome. Festinger would say this creates dissonance and Freud would finish the sentence by saying dissonance creates stress which causes anxiety and depression.

Caveat: this does not excuse toxic male behaviour but it does partly explain a crisis young men are going through.

Exactly Sweetleaf. and the reason why so many young males are drawn to "animal" behaviour like fooball hooligans, getting into drunken fights or become absorbed in toxic subcultures like QAnon or MAGAs or 4chan is because it provides a maladaptive coping mechanism with them thinking they otherwise arent real men.

Explains why right wingers hate intellectual left wing types, because we use our brains > dicks

I mean what really drives it in, is nazi germany also attacked intellectuals, because they knew things about the human condition. They didn't want people with a brain to speak out.

In the service of power. Nazi Germany of course burned Freud's books. Psychiatrist, Dr Hans Asperger (remember him?) worked in the service of the Wehrmacht during WWII. His publications on "autistic psychopathy" were published in the journal of racial hygiene so his own interest in studying children with aspergers was their value to the Nazis as geniuses, otherwise they were destined for the gas chambers.

Meanwhile the Soviets also prohibited free thinking and elevated scientists who promoted work that reinforced Stalin's authoritarian ideas. Soviet geneticist Lysenko pushed an false idea of Lamarkism where you could dock the tail of a mouse and it's progeny would be born without tails. Lysenko's idea to the Soviets assumed you could change people, so if you conditioned them to be good obedient communists then their children would be born to be good obedient communists.

But of course we are talking about enforcing hard boundaries when we speak about Nazis forcing German men to be alphas who express themselves as warriors through war/violence like their ancestors. For the soviets or communist China it was hard boundary forcing men (and women) to find freedom through hard physical labour in service of the motherland. In modern democracies we live with "soft boundaries" where social conformity is achieved through clever mind control and we fall into place social roles that also (according to Freud and Nietzsche) contradict male inner biological drivers.

I'm sure we fell. The human race is very successful as a species, but it's also rather miserable. Hunter-gatherers seem to be happier, not surprisingly. I think the rot set in a long time before feminism.

That worked in the Allies favor though. Because Germany attacked intellectuals (many were Jewish), they fled the country and went to help the other side. It led to the downfall of Germany during the war, as they lost part of their advanced technology to our side. Their wanting control on the masses cost them dearly.

Unfortunately after the war, the US took in some of the nazi scientists that were left alive to build NASA. I realized why it was done (Cold War), but those who committed war crimes should have been held accountable. Alas, they were not (Warner Von Braun is an example).

As for the OP topic, humans do have natural instincts to act like their ancestors. You can see this develop during junior high school, as there becomes a dynamic between those who do sports and those who do not. Some will tend to act upon those instincts (such as sports or bullying), while others can easily repress them. It greatly depends upon their personalities on what they will tend to do with those instincts. If I have an instinct to “hunt” hit me, I play a mind game to strategize war tactics in my head. (My mental tactics are way different than conventional warfare, as I like to develop new technologies and combine them.) It is a way to satisfy that instinct without causing any real violence in the real world . I wish more men could learn to do this than to act out aggressively towards others.

there are physiological responses called fight/flight responses when we face imminent threat or are provoked. the animal part of our brain (the amygdala) lights up when we use our base instinct. In ancient times ritual may have had a role in taming this male urge for uncontrolled aggression and/or oppositional behaviour. Perhaps religion has a role here. there is a pervading rumour even now that elite wealthy folk have secret rituals that start in the hallowed halls of private schools all the way to academia and secret societies (allegedly freemasons). these alleged rituals involved facing fears and dealing with death (among other things) and is meant to initiate young boys to become men.

Generally doesn't seem wise to refer to people like Nietzsche and Freud for insight into "the human condition". Freud is a laughing stock and Nietzsche, with the best will in the world, working over 150 years ago.

The idea that industrialisation caused a "masculinity crisis" seems absurd on the face of it.

Actually they are (ironically) two of the most quoted intellectuals in their respective fields (psychiatry/psychology and philosophy). Much of the insight into human behaviour (whether it be understanding how humans critically evaluate the world or how the process it) the foundations were laid by these two.

Einstein also postulated his theories > 120 years ago as well. While others have built on the foundations he laid, nobody calls Einstein a laughing stock. Sure Freud made some confronting connections, some of which were not accurate because he was working with small sample sizes. Under the circumstances his theory around neurosis still stands the test of time, and according to psychiatry his therapy techniques (referred to as psychodynamics) are actually on par with CBT.

I would posit that Freud also innovated the idea that gave rise to an important paradigm in modern medicine that the mind is inextricably connected to the body. A lot of the good work he and Carl Jung started has been ridiculed by lesser lights in their field (also the rise of behaviourist psychologists in the 1920s concurrently lampooned the unconscious as some type of black box, giving rise to CBT as the only alternative therapy in mental health).

I think Freud was accurate about men, his work has not really been worked on for 100 years which is a pity.

Actually it is plausible. What could be debated is the extent it contributed. Industrialisation whether it be in Europe in the 1800s or what is currently happening in China, sees the bulk of the male population who previously engaged in hard physical labour on farms migrate in mass into urban/cities to work in factories. three things happen
1. they exchange growing crops or livestock for working in monotonous jobs in a factory putting screws on machines or filling jars.
2. they no longer have access to social support of extended family or community
3. women no longer rely on finding a husband and find employment in cities resulting new relations/social dynamics with men

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As Far As the 'Fall of Man' Goes, And Well Earned 'Pedigrees,' i recommend Iain McGilchrist With His 10 Year Study,
And 1500 Page Book Titled, 'The Matter With Things,' For What's Gone Wrong With Western Civilization;

Materially Reducing Our World, Through More Left Brain Hemisphere Processing of Reality, Through all the
Abstract Constructs in Terms of Symbols and Associated Ideologies We Create to Bond And Bind Over the

(Either Fear and Anger iN Discontent of Separation;
Or Hope and LoVE iN Peace For All iN Unity; And All
Spectrums Continuing

to Relate)

Best We Can
And Will Do to
At Least Survive
With 'Insanely' Large
Heterogenous Human
Populations Living Next Door to Each

Other as 'Typically,' Hehe, We No longer Sing
off the Same Choir Sheets of Music or Serve the
Same Made-Up God Of Either An Eye for an Eye or

Turn
the Other Cheek;

i Rather Do 'Wu Wei' Free Style in Flow
Of Effortless Ease Yet that's Just me hehe...

It's True, We Have Canine Teeth; It's True, We
Have the Potential to Hunt, Kill, And Go to War Yet of Course

Nope; It's Not Necessarily 'Imperative' as Human Beings Are Also Very Altruistic
Cooperative Social Animals; Ancestrally, Typically Living in Smallish Groups
With Homogenous Looking And Acting Human Beings; Yes, Typically at Best

Foraging The Day (A Mix of Gathering and Hunting) And Dancing the Night

Away in Communion of What Naturally Heals Anxiety and Reduces Pain; Yes, the

Warm and Fuzzy
Comfort of the
Neurohormonal
Social Bonding and
Healing Ways of Oxytocin,

And Associated Pro-Social
Emotional Neurochemicals
And Neurohormones; True,

Head to Toe To Each Other
Naturally Generated ThiS WaY...

Hehe, my Daddy Said in my Youth; Shortly,
After my First Cousin Got All Burnt Up in a
Helicopter in the Vietnam War, Hoping to be
a Traditional "World War II Hero," Volunteering
His Effort, With no 'Bone Spur Excuses,' for Avoiding the Draft,

Falling to the Military Industrial Complex And Associated Cronies
Orchestrating One of Many Unwarranted Wars Still To come; Yes, my Daddy Said

i Should Join the Military for WHAT IT Takes to MAKE A Man; Unafraid to Pull the Trigger

And Kill Whatever Enemy is imagined Next; Oh Dear Devil Yeah, He Considered Those not
Willing to Kill in Unwarranted Wars, Cowards, With Chicken Foot Peace Signs, As They Were
Not Properly Serving

Those Who Chose
to Make them

'Dogs of War;'

It's True, Put Dogs Out
in the Wild and They Return
to Their Pack Nature of Ripping
The Throats Out of Wild-Life to Survive

With No More Kibbles and Bits; Take a Feral Cat,
An Expert Killer Out of the Woods, Providing Free
Subsistence And 'He' Will Surely Become A Lifelong Lap

Cat Enjoying
The Bliss of
Oxytocin Close

to Human Social
Animals as They Freely
Receive Nature's Healing Benefit

ThiS way too in Unity

Of LifeLonger
Human/Cat Hugs;

Oh Dear Lord, Oh the Ignorance;
When my Only Child Was Going into
Heart Surgery as the Surgeon With Big Hands
Said Kiss Your Baby Goodbye, My Father, the Big
Military and Law Enforcement Rugged Dude Said,

"Make Sure You
Raise Him Like
A Man," as True

My Father Never Left
Any Room to Give me
Any Advice at All Except
The War Advice And Raising

my SON LIKE HIM;

No Thanks, my Son Didn't Survive,
And i Barely Survived the Toxic Patriarchy
That Working for the Military Provided for a Quarter
of A Century; Yet That Toxic Patriarchy Didn't Come From a Man;

Many Others in the Work Place Suffered Similarly as me at the Rank of
A First Woman Captain of a Military Installation as She Really Wanted to

(She Even Changed The Rules to Promote me to keep me In Her Service,
Helping me to Retire at A Much Higher Civilian Rate of Pay; It's True,

Light Comes Out of Darkest Days too; i'd Give Her a Kiss on the
Cheek if i Saw Her Again; True, More Improved Than Turning
the Other Cheek, hehe)

Make the
Rank of
Admiral,

Willing to Step on
Whomever IT took to

Make it Happen;

(It Didn't)

NOPE, For What 'They' All Described As
Being A Man; i Declined, And BeCaME Human Instead...

It's True, i am Literally Just about As Strong as an Orangutan

Per Empirical Evidence of Still Leg Pressing Up to 1540 Pounds,
12 Reps, Just Warming Up At the Military Gym, Limited that Way,

As the Bars on the Machine Will Hold No More 45 Pound Plates
And They Trashed The Hundred Pound Iron Plates as some of the

Folks Couldn't lift them off the Machine to Put Smaller Weights on

Yet Even Silver Back Great Ape Gorillas Will Hold a Kitten Softly Enjoying
the Benefits

of the Love

Hormone

Through and Through;

And True, Hehe All they Need
is a 1.25 INCH PENIS to Sire A 'Harem'...

Sort Of Like Lions As What Dangles
Too Much Gets Torn off by Large Claws and Teeth...

Nah, Most of The Anxiety isn't About Not Being a Man; Most

of the Anxiety

Is About

Losing Our Humanity For Real...

As That Surely Relates, Even More
to Young Women As Science Currently Shows;

Of Course, Factors Related are Mostly Losing the
Human Warm Connection

And All the Freebees
That Come With

All Natural

Healing
in Reduction
of Both Anxiety and Pain...

Dear Lord, Not unlike Jordan
Peterson, Joe Rogan, TRuMP,
Vance, Gaetz, and The Other Marjorie

Taylor Greene's of the World; Both Freud
And Nietzsche And Even Jung; And
Even Alan Watts Were A

'Hot Mess' Navigating

Basic Frigging Existence...

Some Days Ya Just Gotta Get Out
And Dance And Sing NoW EitheR Solo
Or Together For No Reason Yet What A Child

Does With A Non-Sense Song and A Dance With No Lessons...

Yep, Basically Generating All the Healing Neurochemicals and Neurohormones

Within for FREE! God Yes For Real;

YES, TOGETHER AT BEST;

Oh what
Poverty
Not to
Understand
How to Create Our Own Joy For Free...

Meanwhile, Folks Are Buying and Selling Free...

Hehe...

Note to 'Eve':

Pass the Popcorn
The CirCus is BacK iN TOwn..

Key: Don't Become Mastered By
'The Apple,' Make It Your Device to Master,

Spending The Rest of the Day And Night
Naked Enough Whole Complete in Rapture oF Joy For Real

---

^^^ Human beings are programmed to be pro-social but individualistic societies (i.e. Europeans) are descended from horse rising semi-nomadic tribes whose primary form of expansion was through war/genocide. this isnt genetic, as the mongols demonstrated the utility and success of horse led warfare spectacularly. Where Europeans succeeded beyond the initial raiding was to learn from the civilisations they conquered and absorb ideas. However raiding as a form economy extended well into the first millennia with the rise of germanic tribes which sent Europe into a dark age for almost 500 years.

^6^

---

True, there are Few to no Limits to the Darkness
That CuLTuRaL Practices Will Bring to Humanity; Yes,

War Practices Ranging From Pillaging to Harming, Raping,
Maiming, Killing, And Or 'Fine Cuisine' of Cannibalism For CuLTures

So Inclined; And All Types of DarK Torture That Would Make
Modern Horror Movies Chill to the Bone Beyond 'Nightmares

On Elmstreet;'

Yes, And in this
Country, 'TRump'
And ITS Ilk is Only
A Tip of the Iceberg

Of What's Possible When
Humanity Sheds Its Warmer Soul

And Puts 'Real Cold DEvil SKin' On Again...

Ah, Yet Now to LiVE iN A Place of Peace

As Voltaire Once Said, "I'm not a believer,
but I prefer my barber to be a Christian,
even more when he's using his razor on my neck."

And

"Anyone who can make you believe
absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

In Other Words, All This Human STUFF Considered,
i Still REALLY Live in Paradise in 'Trump Town USA,'

Where Yes my Hair Dresser is Christian;

(And i Used to Play Tennis With the Local Priest)

And At Least There are Some Pleasant
Verses to Recite attributed to Jesus When it comes

to Potential Altercations With the 'Natives at Large;'

Yes, i Am Well Versed in the Native Language of 'Good Cop Jesus;'

It Might Sound
Funny Yet

Hehe i am
Dead Serious
All Alive About it Now;

As i am Surely Well Aware
Of What the Depths of Real
Human Contrived Evil Nightmares
Will Do to Make HeLL ON EartH Real...

Of Course, There Are Plenty of Current Examples

All Around
This Human

Globe of Pain and Pleasure...

Yes, Ranging From Hell to Purgatory
to Real Heaven ON EartH; WHere i Even
Once Had An African American Facebook FRiEnD

Audacious Enough to Proclaim in a Facebook Status
That Reading The Old Man Voltaire inspired her to Pull Down

Her Under Things...

She Also Spoiled the
Ending of One of the
Star Wars Movies With

'THEY KILLED HANS SOLO;'

SUCH is the Human Condition,

Full of Flavors; Some Fresh Others Rotting...

Gonna Dance and Sing Free As Long As This LoVinG
Peace Lasts For

Real...

ThERE
ARE NO
GUARANTEES
WHEN IT COMES
TO THE 'HUMAN BEAST'
And the CuLTure'S IT BRingS...

Not Ready to Throw Christianity
Away As It Has Some Shiny Gems LEFT iN Potential...

And IT Could Be A Lot Damned Worse on Earth For Real...

at
least
where
i Live for Sure..

---

Funny how the title of the thread is "the Fall of Man" which sounds like the OP is referencing the Biblical "Fall of Man[kind] from the Garden of Eden" when in fact he means "the Fall of Man" ..."man" in the sense of just the male half of the human race.

Oddly enough there maybe a connection between both. Some say that the fall of the male of the species can be traced all of the way back to the invention of agriculture and the demise of the hunting/gathering way of life. And some say that the Eden story is actually about that. Adam and Eve lived as part of nature "in the garden", but then were forced to earn their living by "the sweat of his brow" by pushing a plow, and submitting to authority of the other humans.

Maybe. Thats one interpretation of the maddeningly puzzling Eden story.