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MrsPeel
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26 Aug 2024, 4:30 am

I'm putting this here as any hypothesising on autism causes tends to be a bit political.

If you look at the timeline of the history of autism, there was a peak in autism studies in the 1940s (Kanner & Asperger) and again in the 1960s, then a rising wave of autism diagnoses from around the 1990s on.

Nowadays we understand that autism is mostly inherited through our genes, but there is a significant environmental component. And we know that environmental stresses can produce epigentic effects - that is, changes to the functioning of genes which are triggered by the environment but can also be passed down or inherited through the generations.

Science has shown that PTSD can cause epigenetic effects. So, is it a coincidence that the first peak of autism in the 1940s arose a generation after World War 1, or is there a connection? And could the 1960s peak be related to WWII?

Studies have also shown that autism prevalence is higher in the children of immigrant mothers (of any origin). Why would this occur, unless there was some link to maternal stress (either stress in the home country driving them to migrate, or the stress of moving to another country)?

My hypothesis is that parental or grandparental stress and trauma makes epigenetic changes which can "switch on" autism-related genes in their descendants.

I'm not the only one thinking this way. Here is an article considering the very high prevalence of autism in Northern Ireland (which is more than double that in the UK generally):
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-neurodivergent-therapist/202201/autism-and-northern-ireland#:~:text=Northern%20Ireland%20has%20often%20been,Autism%20Spectrum%20Disorder%20(ASD).

What are your thoughts?



naturalplastic
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26 Aug 2024, 4:36 am

Could be.

All i can say.

But keep in mind that the expanded numbers of people diagnosed after 1994 is due to them expanding the definition of what is "autism". Folks who would not be diagnosed with autism prior to 1994 now are because its now considered a "spectrum".



MrsPeel
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26 Aug 2024, 4:54 am

True, I'm not discounting that some increase in prevalence is related to diagnostic changes. I just have this nagging feeling that it's not the whole story.

I found another paper on correlation of maternal PTSD and autistic children:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1750946714000427



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26 Aug 2024, 5:13 am

It seems possible; but the simple fact that it may be possible does not make it certain.

Is your hypothesis testable?  If so, then what protocols do you propose?  Would double-blind testing be applicable?

I ask these questions only to stimulate thought, not to challenge you or your reasoning.


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MrsPeel
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26 Aug 2024, 5:15 am

And here's another one, now I'm looking:

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep36250

Quote:
Recently, epigenetics has been suggested as a novel concept for ASD aetiology with a proposition that epigenetic marks can be transgenerationally inherited. Based on this assumption of epigenetics, we investigated the transgenerational inheritance of ASD-like behaviours and their related synaptic changes in the VPA animal model of ASD..... Remarkably, the autism-like behavioural phenotypes found in F1 persisted to the F2 and F3. Additionally, the frontal cortices of F1 and F3 showed some imbalanced expressions of excitatory/inhibitory synaptic markers, suggesting a transgenerational epigenetic inheritance. These results open the idea that E/I imbalance and ASD-like behavioural changes induced by environmental insults in mice can be epigenetically transmitted, at least, to the third generation. This study could help explain the unprecedented increase in ASD prevalence.



MrsPeel
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26 Aug 2024, 5:17 am

Fnord wrote:
It seems possible; but the simple fact that it may be possible does not make it certain.

Is your hypothesis testable?  If so, then what protocols do you propose?  Would double-blind testing be applicable?

I ask these questions only to stimulate thought, not to challenge you or your reasoning.


Of course, it is a long way from certain, that's why I am calling it a hypothesis. And I'm not in a position to test it so probably won't get a definitive answer on it any time soon. But I find it an interesting thought.



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26 Aug 2024, 6:04 am

Interesting, since I experience my ASD as a heightened state of PTSD or a lifelong freeze-state from fear, crippling anxiety, and hyper-vigilance. I know it's more than that, but that's what it feels like - the fear of being alive or experiencing life.

Both my parents left the UK before I was born. My mother moved to two new countries within two years, once at sixteen for which she had to quit school after her mother nearly died in childbirth, and the second by herself to live with my dad's family as an unwed 17-year old. She was under considerable stress living with my dad and his parents who were fighting pre-break up. My dad's mum hated her, and her own parents didn't travel to visit her because her autistic father decided planes weren't safe despite being a Boeing engineer. Then my parents got married and it took eight years to conceive my older brother. My grandparents had trauma from WW2 and there is a lot of depression/anxiety/suicide in the family going back generations.

Sorry for the ramble but I'm thinking out loud.

I'm sure stress doesn't cause autism for everyone but the effects of high cortisol on pregnancy should perhaps be investigated too. Generational trauma certainly exists so it must have a genetic component, meaning at least some autistic newborns would have those genes.

Thanks for sharing. I love your posts.


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carlos55
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27 Aug 2024, 2:41 pm

MrsPeel wrote:
I'm putting this here as any hypothesising on autism causes tends to be a bit political.

If you look at the timeline of the history of autism, there was a peak in autism studies in the 1940s (Kanner & Asperger) and again in the 1960s, then a rising wave of autism diagnoses from around the 1990s on.

Nowadays we understand that autism is mostly inherited through our genes, but there is a significant environmental component. And we know that environmental stresses can produce epigentic effects - that is, changes to the functioning of genes which are triggered by the environment but can also be passed down or inherited through the generations.

Science has shown that PTSD can cause epigenetic effects. So, is it a coincidence that the first peak of autism in the 1940s arose a generation after World War 1, or is there a connection? And could the 1960s peak be related to WWII?

Studies have also shown that autism prevalence is higher in the children of immigrant mothers (of any origin). Why would this occur, unless there was some link to maternal stress (either stress in the home country driving them to migrate, or the stress of moving to another country)?

My hypothesis is that parental or grandparental stress and trauma makes epigenetic changes which can "switch on" autism-related genes in their descendants.

I'm not the only one thinking this way. Here is an article considering the very high prevalence of autism in Northern Ireland (which is more than double that in the UK generally):
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-neurodivergent-therapist/202201/autism-and-northern-ireland#:~:text=Northern%20Ireland%20has%20often%20been,Autism%20Spectrum%20Disorder%20(ASD).

What are your thoughts?


The theory assumes that life was great before the 20th century, when we all know it wasn't

There were huge wars in Europe & around the world, the only difference hardly anyone cared about peasants dying. Life at home was hard too, children worked in factories & sent up chimneys mothers worked in dangerous factories in harsh conditions.

I heard in the middle ages drinking water was not safe to drink as it was considered likely contaminated, the only safe drink was beer, so most people drunk that each day, its likely most people even pregnant mothers were in various states of alcohol intoxication most of the time.

Then you have the black death & plague, famine etc.. so theory doesn't really add up on its own.


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carlos55
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28 Aug 2024, 1:56 am

Where are all the autistic people from the trauma?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vwqi9s2XS ... IGFnZXM%3D


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MrsPeel
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30 Aug 2024, 5:03 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Interesting, since I experience my ASD as a heightened state of PTSD or a lifelong freeze-state from fear, crippling anxiety, and hyper-vigilance. I know it's more than that, but that's what it feels like - the fear of being alive or experiencing life.

Both my parents left the UK before I was born. My mother moved to two new countries within two years, once at sixteen for which she had to quit school after her mother nearly died in childbirth, and the second by herself to live with my dad's family as an unwed 17-year old. She was under considerable stress living with my dad and his parents who were fighting pre-break up. My dad's mum hated her, and her own parents didn't travel to visit her because her autistic father decided planes weren't safe despite being a Boeing engineer. Then my parents got married and it took eight years to conceive my older brother. My grandparents had trauma from WW2 and there is a lot of depression/anxiety/suicide in the family going back generations.

Sorry for the ramble but I'm thinking out loud.

I'm sure stress doesn't cause autism for everyone but the effects of high cortisol on pregnancy should perhaps be investigated too. Generational trauma certainly exists so it must have a genetic component, meaning at least some autistic newborns would have those genes.

Thanks for sharing. I love your posts.


That's interesting about your family background, thank you.
For me, I can't see that there was trauma for my mother, but she would have been conceived during the second world war, so maybe it was her mother under stress (?) It's hard to say.



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30 Aug 2024, 5:44 am

My mother was most likely on the spectrum. I am sure I inherited my traits from her. However my older son is significantly disabled. He is verbal and can work at a food store retrieving shopping carts, but requires a lot of support, for example he can't use social media. When he was conceived, I was under a LOT of work-related stress. TBH I have often felt there was a connection although I'd never known of any theories.


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MrsPeel
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30 Aug 2024, 6:33 am

For those asking where all the autistic people were during high stress times in the middle ages or the industrial revolution, this is my thought:

I have to guess some figures here to illustrate my point, bear with me. If the genes for autism are present in, say, around 1 in a hundred people, and if intergenerational trauma in times of peace typically occurs in, let's say, five percent of births, that means epigenetic autism prevalence would be 1 in 2,000.

In the middle ages society was mainly agrarian, and even major market towns might have had a population of only a few thousand people. So in times of peace autism would have been rare, maybe one person in the town, and probably not recognised due to having much worse issues to deal with, like high death rates from infectious diseases and famines.

Whether there was significant population exposed to war trauma in those days is debatable, considering the size of the army might have been only around 20-30,000 men. (Apparently, William of Normandy conquered England with an army of only 10,000). And I suspect that, before modern medical practices, most of those who fought in the bloodiest battles did not return home with PTSD but simply died, so their genes were not passed on.

There was rapid population growth in the 17th to 19th centuries and as towns grew in population, there would have been quite a few autistics living there. But in those days there was very limited understanding even of pronounced mental disturbances such as psychosis and acute schizophrenia, which tended to be viewed as supernatural, demon-possession etc. At that time, there were a few lunatic asylums for the most obviously mentally ill - and psychiatry as a legitimate field of study only became established by the mid 19th century. So it's easy to see how autism may have been present but unrecognised.

Now consider World War 1. This involved unprecedented numbers of combatants - about 6 million British people served in the war (out of a population of 45 million), and 4-5 million US citizens. So many people returned with trauma that a new term "shell shock" arose to describe it. This was the start of the recognition of PTSD. 20-30 years later, we also see the first descriptions of autism in children. It could be a coincidence, but if you understand epigenetics, it might not be.

Going back to my number guesswork, let's assume that during WW1 maybe 20% of the population were suffering acute stress, which affected them epigenetically and was passed on. That would mean a rise in autism prevalence from 1 in 2000 to 1 in 500. Hence psychiatrists would have been seeing more cases and starting to recognise it as a condition.

So. For those asking where the autistics were during the stress of the middle ages, consider this - if life was so traumatic back then, where was all the PTSD?



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30 Aug 2024, 7:08 am

MaxE wrote:
My mother was most likely on the spectrum. I am sure I inherited my traits from her. However my older son is significantly disabled. He is verbal and can work at a food store retrieving shopping carts, but requires a lot of support, for example he can't use social media. When he was conceived, I was under a LOT of work-related stress. TBH I have often felt there was a connection although I'd never known of any theories.


That's interesting. I also have a son who is more severely affected than myself.
I wasn't under severe, traumatic type of stress at the time I was pregnant, although I was living overseas and working hard so there would have been a base level there. But he had a difficult birth and may have been hypoxic for a while, so in his case it might be a birth trauma effect.

That's a good point, actually, the trauma does not have to be transgenerational. Birth trauma is known increase risk of autism also.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170131124140.htm



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30 Aug 2024, 8:07 am

MrsPeel wrote:


So. For those asking where the autistics were during the stress of the middle ages, consider this - if life was so traumatic back then, where was all the PTSD?


Undoubtedly, trauma has always existed.

However, when every day is essentially a struggle to stay alive until the next day, as it was for 99% of the population of the Earth during the 1300s through 1500s, pissing and moaning about one's trauma isn't high on the to do list.



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02 Sep 2024, 12:35 pm

I looked up transgenerational trauma on wiki and it mentioned things like indigenous children being punished for speaking their native language at school.

Horrible. And to think nowadays you can practically get away with saying the F word. Constantly.



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03 Sep 2024, 6:27 am

clearly genetic in my family, having autistic-like individuals and also suicides in every generation on my mother's family lines for as far back as I can research (late 1700s) .
Also seems to be tied to club feet in our family's case.
There are/ were traumas of every sort for every generation, I just don't see any connection to trauma of war in particular.


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