The Evolutionary Advantages of Playing Victim

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A Quillette essay written by Cory Clark and read by Zoe Booth:
https://quillette.com/2021/02/27/the-ev ... ng-victim/



It's a tragic but well-known answer, of many, to questions like 'Why can't we have nice things?' or 'Why can't autistics get the help and representation they need?'.

I also think it's an argument for trying to get some type of social reinforcement in Dunbar-sized groups (150 or so), for the sake of everyone being known by enough people for their moral character to be a known rather than unknown quantity.

So-called "victim mentality" or (in the above-linked article) "victim signalling" is one of those traits that can be a good thing up to a point, but harmful if carried too far.

It can be a good thing insofar as it inspires people to fight for justice, against real harms, and insofar as it inspires people to empathize with victims of other real harms.

It can be a bad thing insofar as it becomes what I will call a generalized "victim mentality" i.e. a tendency to blame others for everything that goes wrong in one's life.

"Victim signalling" in moderation has inspired many political movements for positive social change.

Generalized victim mentality, on the other hand, can wreak havoc within those very same movements and/or turn them towards evil ends. See, for example, the classic essay TRASHING: The Dark Side of Sisterhood by Jo Freeman, about the exceedingly bitter infighting she experienced within the feminist movement of the 1970's. Another classic essay by a feminist critiquing excessive victim mentality within the movement is Magic Mommas & Trembling Sisters by Joanna Russ, from Magic Mommas, Trembling Sisters, Puritans & Perverts, 1985.

Some people also engage in outright false "victim-signalling," e.g. U.S. Bible Belt evangelical Christians complaining about being "persecuted" (while not doing anything to help fellow Christians in other parts of the world where Christians really are persecuted). To the Christian religious right wing here in the U.S.A., being "persecuted" means not being allowed to persecute LGBTQ+ people.

However, valid objections to generalized or false "victim mentality" or "victim signalling" have also been mis-used by right wingers to object to the valid goals of movements for the rights of various marginalized groups.

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 20 Sep 2024, 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

For sure. This is something western civilization will need a much more nuanced read on and properly treat it as something that can, and for unscrupulous enough people - will, be hacked and exploited.

What I think happened in the last ten years was that those words still had such weight behind them that people were absolutely terrified of anyone who'd use them in a Machiavellian manner thus they all fell in line regardless of whether it was right or wrong.

Assuming this is a thing. It has to have some biological/survival benefit.

In social animals the dominant males/females demand subservience. However at times a beta male or female might push the boundaries (e.g. for food or mates). the alpha naturally asserts themselves. In the process the beta feigns defeat and assumes a defensive self-protective stance or retreats. But I guess if two betas get into a fight and the alpha tries to break them up I wonder if animals are capable of playing games and pretending they were the victim?

In the latter I can see in social groups where two people get into a dispute one might indeed feign they were the victim when they were perhaps equally responsible. this might work in such instances. But playing the perpetual victim? I am struggling to see the long term benefits. An extreme example is professional begging or fraud involving pretending to have cancer and stealing donations. But this is more strategic deception than victimhood.

So let's examine the conservative thesis that left wing movements attract or nurture victim mentality? the one that comes up the most is people who are traditionally marginalised who they claim are taught they are victims. So when they self-identify as part of the group they draw on experiences that conservatives allege are either fabricated or exaggerated.

But are they really "playing victim"? I don't think so. I think its more self-awareness and hypervigilance. to me it's obvious.

Being part of a community who are historically targeted by police means parents have to have a talk with their children about the dangers of being stopped by the cops. Also there are places in America they can't travel alone due to harassment or physical danger. Maybe if you are queer you will be expected to be marginalised or bullied in school. If you are in a wheelchair or have visible disability you won't have friends. So rather than "playing victim", their "inferior" social status is placed on them and they didn't ask for it.

I'd bring that last sentence back around - I think the article is pointing at precisely that issue, ie. how many people (consciously or unconsciously) use it in the strategic way. When I say unconsciously I'd be careful not to let that get too malleable - there are a lot of people who love both having a squeaky clean social persona and belief about themselves, they also like getting things other people don't feel that they've earned, and they make up the difference through chicanery while very much convincing themselves that the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.


Well right, there's type I and type II error (false positives and false negatives) and, people generally being lazy and not too bright, they pick a political football team and the conservative one likes to keep things simple - if you say your a victim you're probably making it up. Important to note that they exists but they're a different side of the same problem, ie. people not liking reality much and instead of grappling with it on a case-by-case they lump it all together so they can stop thinking about it and go fish.


Those are typically the people trying to get through life who get pushed to the walls by clever fakes. This is also where when neurotypicals are quick to call autistic spectrum disorder a government check scam I hear two things at once - on one hand there's some bigotry, on the other hand - they know NT's and they're right that many NT's would do that.

It is a thing, although its existence has all-too-often been mis-used, by conservatives, to dismiss political movements against genuine oppression.


Agreed.

Ok number 1. Who is Cory Clark? She's a social psychologist and has a PhD, so she must be right! but then I remember Jordan Petersen has a PhD and was a psychologist (ahem! ex-psychologist as his licence to practice and teach was revoked by the government of Canada). So as a good snoop, I did a bit of digging and Cory is an associate editor on a publication called "Quillete" where the essay being discussed in the video is from. Coincidentally it's an Australian based online media company. founded by Claire Lehmann in 2015, and incorporated in 2018. In 2022, she remains the sole director of Quillette Pty Ltd, a private company held in Australia. When I google Quillette the first link that comes up
https://www.thenation.com/article/archi ... ist-creep/
Any surprise?

But lets remain objective.
What is the chance of type II error? people being labelled victims are actually not victims? According to conservatives anyone in the media who experiences discrimination is woke. they will of course say most people claiming "isms" are
woke > not woke
Are they even close? My interpretation of reading/watching hundreds of articles/videos from conservative authors is they practice a form of confirmation bias. they seek examples in the media that confirm an existing bias they already carry.

That's really someone else's set of concerns - meaning her Phd probably helped her get an article in Quillette but it had nothing to do with the article resonating with my own observations.

We've been watching open-invite left-oriented movements self-immolate by filling up with predators who fleece the whole thing and I think that happens in part because once you put your head down in dogma your quite vulnerable to manipulation by people who genuinely intend to do that. They're also being so inclusive that these people can walk right in and take over covertly (I'll say more about that below). I don't know what's controversial enough in her article to need her Phd to prop it up.


There are a lot of liberals talking about this as well, they're more the John Stuart Mill types. It's important for them to talk about it as well because it's part of 'why we can't have nice things' or 'why we can't have effective protest movements', if people don't know what to watch out for or don't build some type of filter into admission for Machiavellian types it won't go well. These people chase power like flies chase crap and for them it's like buying the dip on a stock they've been watching for months or like grabbing the grill from Home Depot that they've been waiting to see on 25% discount - ie. standard operating procedure.

the right and those who gravitate toward their philosophies (pick one - great replacement theory) sadly lack intellectual rigor when it comes to most of their arguments. So a PhD does come in handy, they can't keep relying on Jordan Peterson for everything so they will take what they can get.

So if there is an advantage to playing the victim..how does anyone get ahead..or if enough predatory types are about, dont these people get targeted? think Germany WW2 and the various groups whom went to concentration camps , without fighting back...? When people are trying to cause your existence to expire..? at what point do you decide to give up and just be the victim.? Not much advantage,am thinking , please pardon the example,Could have used Rwanda or So. Africa or the Armenians .
But this maybe alittle off topic ...but am liable to understand words in a very literal context.
apologies if anyone feels offend about this offering of concept.
And yes have had many people falsely use the victim gag to get over on me and many others.Found out after the fact from other indirectly involved parties in those circumstances. After a time ...with enough of these experiences
it does become easier to spot these people and their tactics .
But it almost goes against ones own nature to be able to sort these types . but important to avoid misjudging people in real life unfortunate situations .
But oddly enough Aspies are easy to target due to less than very well developed social skills . So perhaps 60 + years of repeated experiences like this that cost me , Entire life saving then entire inheritance then my home and property even the life of loved ones..Your experience level in this sort of stuff rises, whether you want it or not. And its terrible trying to get past the stuff these people can impose on your pysche . ....IMHO

And yes have heard of rolling over and playing dead if a bear attacks, maybe the only way to survive .But it might have been more prudent , to carry bear repellant spray if you are " IN" there territory.. Or just not be there .

Last edited by Jakki on 20 Sep 2024, 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't dispute people grift off left wing causes, but they are not necessarily progressive nor necessarily a majority. Understanding that being conscious of marginalisation is a human right in both self-advocacy and advocacy. Yes, there are people who begrudge the rich and join forces because deep down they want "nicer things" but there are also people who ape conservative values while being dirt poor. I need not bring up pictures of folk protesting Obama's medicaid bill who either have missing or no teeth because they likely can't afford dental work since they do not have insurance. there are people who aspire toward ideals whether they be universal rights for all, saving forests or keeping America white. Movements can be joined but most people stick to "personal preferences" or values, some which are inherited some of which are nurtured.

I agree with what you are saying. I also think Aspies are less likely to budge once they have settled on their values.

these are great examples although I would argue probably a little more extreme (other examples include catastrophic natural disasters). COVID severely tested many people across the world.

My argument is throwing all progressive ideas as "woke" and those self-advocating as "victims" or advocating as grifters is serving another agenda.

Thank you , find myself agreeing with the ideas in this above post . but sorting causes and people, can make one
possibly be alittle paranoid of the self proclaimed victim groups ...

Something I wanted to clarify - by 'nice things' I mean nice things like high-trust society, institutions that work, monetary systems that work, not needing to compete with national corporations paying cash to buy a house, not needing to constantly worry if your mechanic, doctor, lawyer, etc. is trying to play asymmetric knowledge games against you, etc..

I think our situation's worse than lackluster social skills. The rub is that if you bring your social skills up to code, at least in any way that neurotypicals are used to describing social skills, you realize a majority chunk of what actually applies as 'social skills' is a priori neurological conformity, where you'd have no clue how to step out of line because you're wired the same as everyone else. People with high IQ's tend to run into a lot of the same social issues we do based on similar double-empathy dynamics.

I often think what we have is less a social skills impairment than a social skills learning delay, it's just that we live in such a hypercompetitive world that any delays, any abnormalities at any point in your life (overcome or otherwise) leave a mark by way of missing milestones and if you show signs of any missing milestones (fault being completely irrelevant) it's a sign that there's something wrong with you and that you're not worth bothering with because you aren't higher status than they are thus you aren't a means by which they can socially climb, and if you're not a means by which they can socially climb you're invisible at best or prey at worst when people realize that you may not have a lot of other people (if any) who can come to your defense.

Half of the issue is us plowing through a struggle most people don't have quite the same way, the other half is the amoral nature of social status competition and how any advantage of any kind, no matter how far below the waist, is worth exploiting because it's 'life as a gene pageant' rather than 'life as people growing, learning, and cultivating wisdom together' which is something it seems like we've taken seriously from time to time but right now mostly discarded.