Poor recognition of 'self' found in high functioning peop...

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MrMark
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07 Feb 2008, 10:19 am

Poor recognition of 'self' found in high functioning people with autism (EurekAlert!)

Contrary to popular notions, people at the high end of the autism spectrum disorder continuum suffer most from an inability to model “self” rather than impaired ability to respond to others, said Baylor College of Medicine researchers in a report that appear in the journal Neuron.

This inability to model “self” can disrupt an individual’s ability to understand the world as a whole, said Dr. P. Read Montague Jr., professor of neuroscience, and director of the Human Neuroimaging Lab and the Computational Psychiatry Unit at BCM. “It’s an interesting disconnect.”

Using a functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) scanner, Montague and his colleagues scanned the brains of people considered “high functioning” autistics because they have normal or high normal intelligence quotients but many of the symptoms of people with autism. During this procedure, the researchers identified a pattern of activity or “signature” in the brain that identified those with autism. The level of activity correlates with the severity of the autistic symptoms. The less activity there is, the more serious the symptoms. The finding could lead to a test to speed diagnosis.

more...


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07 Feb 2008, 10:46 am

That is interesting. o.0
It might be to our advantage... Wouldn't we have more room for knowledge that way?


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kclark
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07 Feb 2008, 11:02 am

I reread that article several times and I don't understand how the trust game involves a sense of self.

The line
“To have a good self concept, you have to be able to decide if the shared outcome is due to the other person or due to you,” said Montague. “If people can’t see themselves as a distinct entities at deeper levels, there is a disconnect.”
is confusing to me and I don't get what is trying to be conveyed. Isn't a shared outcome due to a combination of both people and not to either one exclusively? Is that the sense of self they are talking about?



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07 Feb 2008, 11:10 am

Maby I am super tired and had worked long hours and need sleep but I have absolutly no clue how this game really works and how it measures trust and self. I may have to re-read this article tomorrow after I have had more sleep cause it made 0 sence.


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07 Feb 2008, 11:17 am

Okay, I have (modesty aside) a fairly high IQ, and outstanding reading comprehension. And I had problems understanding the same section as kclark.

Does this indicate I have a poor sense of self? Or perhaps that the authors of the study have a poor sense of how the English language hangs together?

Or is that portion really as nonsensical as it seems?


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woodsman25
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07 Feb 2008, 11:28 am

DeaconBlues wrote:
Okay, I have (modesty aside) a fairly high IQ, and outstanding reading comprehension. And I had problems understanding the same section as kclark.

Does this indicate I have a poor sense of self? Or perhaps that the authors of the study have a poor sense of how the English language hangs together?

Or is that portion really as nonsensical as it seems?


awsome so I am not just going stupid!


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Morrissey
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07 Feb 2008, 11:50 am

Not sure I understand this,

The sense of 'self', what I have to say about that, is the more high functioning you are the more likely society thinks that you are 'normal' here lies the paradoxical daily disturbance of every high functioning autistic person. I'm not saying that low functioning people don't have it bad, of course they do, but with HF people, like myself, there's the personality consistency issue = the aspergers self and the acted NT mask which some of us choose to display.

It's got to the point where i've analysed my masks and self perception so much that my persona is a constant weapon in society because I mix it up. It's random, it's disturbing for myself and the recipient, somehow though I feel there's good Art to be created with this mutancy.



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07 Feb 2008, 11:56 am

Sounds like the "autistics dont daydream" experiment. They are grasping at straws and imagining things.(and saying we dont)



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07 Feb 2008, 1:29 pm

The Article wrote:

In the trust game, one player receives an amount of money and then sends whatever amount he or she wants to the other player via computer message. The amount sent is tripled and the player at the other end then decides how much of the tripled amount to send back. The game has several rounds.
During this interaction, Montague and his colleagues evaluated the brains’ response by watching bright spots in the brain that represent increased blood flow and thus brain activity. Prior work had shown that during the trust game, most of the activity occurs in an area called the cingulate cortex.
To hone their picture of the “self” response in that part of the brain, Montague and his colleagues had 81 athletes (football, baseball and soccer players as well as members of the Houston Ballet) take part in an imagining task. They watched clips of various athletic activities while in the scanner. They then imagined themselves performing those activities. The pattern of activity in the cingulate cortex during that “imagining” reflected the “self” response.
Later the scientists identified the same “self” response in the cingulate cortices of normal subjects when they decided how much money to send to the other person. The pattern contrasted with the “other” response seen when the actions of their partner in the trust game were revealed to them.
The researchers then brought in 18 adolescent males with high functioning autism to play the game. Montague and his colleagues determined that the subjects understood the game and helped them adjust to the scanning procedure.
“It was the first time an autistic kid had been scanned in a social exchange,” said Montague.
The adolescents did not play the game differently from their partners, who were taken from a population of similar teens who did not have autism. They made similar amounts of money overall and round by round.
However, when the researchers scanned the brains of the youngsters with autism during the trust game, they found that the youngsters’ “self” responses were dim compared to those of normal subjects. Not only that, but the more serious the subject’s autistic symptoms, the dimmer the response.
The response occurred in the cingulate cortex. In a normal “self” response there, the brightest area was in the middle of that area of the brain. That response was significantly less in the brains of the youngsters with autism.
“They cognitively understood the game,” said Montague. “It’s not that they don’t understand the game. It’s that there is a very low level of ‘self’ response. It’s impaired in them and the degree to which it is missing correlates with their symptom severity. The more you are missing the self response, the more autistic you are.”

The basic upshot appears to be that the cingulate cortex lights up more for the NTs than it does for the autistics. The game itself seems to be a simple test of you send some dollars to an email address and hope for extra money back. (Sort of like replying to one of those SPAM emails, I guess ;-)

I still haven’t figured out whether the autistics were the senders, the triplers, or both, but I guess it’s not supposed to matter. The implication is that the “imaging yourself doing something” part of the brain didn’t work as hard in the autistics, therefore the autistics don’t relate as deeply with others.

That seems a rather obvious, but strangely tenuous bit of logic. There seem to be a lot of potential questions unanswered. For instance, is there a chance that 18-year old autistics may have already come to well-founded conclusions in a logical way about their relationships with others?

Or, is that really what that part of the brain is doing? Is it correct to assume that the fact that it lights up for the imaging athletes means that it has to do with “self ?” Perhaps it has to do with autistics caching certain self-centered role-playing activities faster than non-autistics do? Perhaps it’s just a question of processing – nothing to do with our “self response” being “impaired.” If autistics did poorly at the game, I might believe and impairment, but that didn’t happen. And I’m still not convinced this whole thing implies a deficit in our ability to recognize or model our selves.

On the question of “is this what that part of the brain is actually for”, this is from a Scientific American <http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=brain-area-foils-fear> article from last September :
Sci Am article wrote:
"For example, if someone is walking on an empty street at night and hears a loud banging sound in the near distance, the amygdala would immediately light up," explains Joy Hirsch of Columbia University, senior author of the paper presenting the result in the September 21 issue of Neuron. "Once the source is determined, the [anterior cingulate cortex] determines if action is needed or not. For example, if it was a car door slamming, the [anterior cingulate cortex] would shut down the amygdala."

So, is it possible that our brains (more like prey than predator according to Temple Grandin) have efficiently processed the meaning of the game and classified it as free of threats, whereas the NTs have to keep doing the same exercise over and over?

I don’t have the time for a full analysis, nor do I care, but these are a few of the many questions that come to me from this article.

And I’m sick of people coming up with proof after proof that I don’t care about other people. Just not true. Besides, it sounds a lot like an excuse for them to stop caring about us.


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MrMark
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07 Feb 2008, 2:03 pm

gitchel wrote:
And I’m sick of people coming up with proof after proof that I don’t care about other people. Just not true. Besides, it sounds a lot like an excuse for them to stop caring about us.


I think it's a matter of perception. Autistics are obseved by NTs and conclusions are based on NT norms. It's a case of "If you really loved me you would... (behave the way I think you should behave.)"

I think we need more autistics degreed in medical science so that the autistic perspective can be brought into these research projects.


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kclark
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08 Feb 2008, 4:42 pm

Thanks for expounding some gitchel.

This is why I don't like reading articles about things without being able to dig into the real data and assumptions. It just leaves too many questions unanswered.

Another possible answer is that the NTs were learning more from the game and thus activating the brain more than the autistics who already had the understanding of the underlying principles of the game. Without really detailed info on what the game is and if it is even possible to do better than the NTs, I have no idea if the fact that the two groups of subjects scoring equal is of any importance.

Rereading again it sounds like all there is to the game is picking an amount to send. That amount is tripled and the recipient selects an amount to send back. If the amount is tripled on every sending then to gain the most you should send everything if you trust your partner to send everything back. If you know the number of rounds you can work with each other to create large values for each. I would need to know how much of the entire rules did they know.

The game seems to be based on trusting your partner not to screw you on the last round and the sense of self may be involved by realizing that the other person may do just that. Realizing that you could keep for yourself most of the tripled amount would require a higher sense of self that someone who just plays out the game and send the agreed upon amount.

Overall, not enough information for me to really understand what is going on. Although the fact that they detected a difference in brain activity is interesting, I am as yet unconvinced that it is really pointing to a lack of sense of self rather than some other cause.



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10 Feb 2008, 1:49 am

I don't understand what is meant by this 'self' thing.


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11 Feb 2008, 4:19 am

It sort of makes sense to me in a way. I have only a vague sense of self, along with a vague sense of others existing too. None of this feels real to me and I get the feeling that other people have parts of their brain fired up that make life and themselves feel more real to them than it does to me.


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11 Feb 2008, 11:53 am

kclark wrote:
Rereading again it sounds like all there is to the game is picking an amount to send. That amount is tripled and the recipient selects an amount to send back. If the amount is tripled on every sending then to gain the most you should send everything if you trust your partner to send everything back. If you know the number of rounds you can work with each other to create large values for each. I would need to know how much of the entire rules did they know.

The game seems to be based on trusting your partner not to screw you on the last round and the sense of self may be involved by realizing that the other person may do just that. Realizing that you could keep for yourself most of the tripled amount would require a higher sense of self that someone who just plays out the game and send the agreed upon amount.

So, according to these researchers, "sense of self" = "naked greed and instinct for betrayal". Okay. I think that tells us more about the researchers than about autistics...


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11 Feb 2008, 12:05 pm

Another all in your mind topic

If this article's use of the term sense of self has anything to do with theory of mind, this is a idea of which people who live with Asperger's are already aware.

What it appears is that now there is a fMRI brain scan that shows blood flow to the cingulate area, indicating whether or not this area lights up and is activated.

It sounds as if gitchel. Zen_Mistress MrMark and others have figured much of this out.

Now what do the brilliant researchers do once the embargo has lifted? 8O


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kclark
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11 Feb 2008, 2:03 pm

DeaconBlues wrote:
So, according to these researchers, "sense of self" = "naked greed and instinct for betrayal". Okay. I think that tells us more about the researchers than about autistics...


It could be that, but with something so vague as sense of self up for definition it could be almost anything. Just firing some guesses now:
It could also be that the NT group had more awareness of how they chose to play each round and how that affects the game. Whereas the AS group might have focused more on the best way or ideal way and less on how their choice affects the game. Once you figure out your ideal method of playing then the turn to turn play may be rather superfluous, either your ideal matched and you win or it didn't match and you loose.