20 Oct 2005, 7:23 pm
20 Oct 2005, 7:35 pm
20 Oct 2005, 7:47 pm
duncvis
Veteran
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Age: 48
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,642
Location: The valleys of green and grey
20 Oct 2005, 8:04 pm
Yep, this rings a bell alright... by the way I've posted this topic before an' all! lets do it again though cos it winds the conservatives up... 
the old topic is buried now - http://www.wrongplanet.net/modules.php? ... pic&t=3432
20 Oct 2005, 9:01 pm
20 Oct 2005, 10:11 pm
20 Oct 2005, 11:12 pm
I think we were alot closer to those he identified in the Cold War era then now. Even World War 2 or the Civil War we were alot closer on some of them. And also I havent seen any proof that those exist today like for example fradulant elections (other then by conspiracy theorists) or "Normal and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime."
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21 Oct 2005, 12:25 am
21 Oct 2005, 12:53 am
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1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.
From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.
From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.
Powerful nationalism can be healthy. After the low sense of nationalism due to globalization at the expense of American jobs and the "if the economy is good, who cares about anything else" attitude of the Clinton administration, a unifying force in the country is a good thing. It's okay to share ideas (back and forth) with the rest of the world, but measures need to be taken to keep globalization out of internal matters.
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2. Disdain for the importance of human rights.
The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.
The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.
Inside the borders of the US, we have some of the best human rights laws in the world. We don't try to have our government wait on us hand and foot like most European countries critical of our system, but we have legal safeguards that protect people from having the government tell them what they can and can't say, a little tougher laws than most of those countries when it comes to privacy, and better prisions than some EU members in most parts of our country. As for human rights abroad, that is not our problem, but we try to help when and where we can. Human righs issues that have national security implications must come first. Either way, nobody ever appreciates the aid we send out.
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3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.
The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the peoples attention from other problems, to shift blame forfailures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choicerelentless propaganda and disinformationwere usually effective. Often the regimes would incite spontaneous acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, andterrorists. Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.
The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the peoples attention from other problems, to shift blame forfailures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choicerelentless propaganda and disinformationwere usually effective. Often the regimes would incite spontaneous acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, andterrorists. Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.
Despite how such groups yell and scream about how they are opressed, discriminated against, and how they go around throwing their little tantrums like some two year old that's parents never spanked them, these groups do have constitutional protection as citizens. The problem lies in that they throw their little tantrums and their long term propaganda campaigns to portray themselves as victims in order to gain special rights that the rest of the population don't have.
HOW THE HELL ARE TERRORISTS SCAPECOATS? The terrorists have been out to get us since 1979 when they invaded our embassy in Tehran. Since attacking another countries embassy is an act of war, Carter could have vaporized that s**thole of a country and it would have been erfectly legal under the Geneva Convention. We took the diplomatic aproach with them then, and we are now going to face an imminent missile crisis for it now. The same thing hapened in Beirut. The USS Cole incident was another act of war under the Geneva Convention. We should have been landing Marines up and down the beaches of Yemen, but we sent a team of FBI investigators instead. How many times does someone have to attack the World Trade Center before you decide it's time to go kick some asses using more than a couple cruise missile stikes? The only reaason that Bush looks like such a bully is because Clinton was a f*****g p****! No wonder he delegated so many tasks to Hillary.
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4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.
Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.
Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.
That supremacy of the military has also kept alot of people's bitchy, ret*d asses from speaking, German, Japaneese, Russian, Chineese, and Arabic!
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5. Rampant sexism.
Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.
Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.
I support letting wonen do anything that men do. I used to have concerns about having a female President someday, citing concerns that PMS and missile codes wouldn't mix. That was about five years ago. Now, she could spin a globe, close her eyes, put her finger on the globe, and order a nucear strike on the coordinates where her finger are at an probably not hit anything worth giving a crap about.
How is homosexuality a sexist issue?
No government, or population for that matter, should think that killing off the future of their country is a good idea, and expect to survive as a country no more than a few generations.
To sum it up, abortion an homosexuality have nothing to offer a society.
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6. A controlled mass media.
Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes excesses.
Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes excesses.
Most meda in the US is highly liberal and was practically in bed with the Clinton administration (why not? he was in bed with just about everybody else!). Since they were such good buddies, they were more than happy to look the other way when it came to his illegal buisness dealings or his assasinations of former buisness partners to cover it up, and they also helped him cver up his failures to address small national security matters which blew up into a big natinal security crisis shorty after bush came into office (before 9/11, Bush was using the same policies and security information as Clinton). Now that Al Gore couldn't b***h and throw a tanrum in the Supreme Court (standard liberal tactics: if you can't get your way democratically, have the court it make law for you), the media elite had it out for Bush (9/11 changes that temporarily) and now Bush has to use more strong armed methods to keep less pleasant means of defending freedom from the public eye.
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7. Obsession with national security.
Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting national security, and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.
Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting national security, and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.
Once again, this would fall under that catergory of creating and emergency fix for Clinton's negligence, and keeping in mind the alternative to not being vigilant about security.
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8. Religion and ruling elite tied together.
Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elites behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the godless. A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.
Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elites behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the godless. A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.
Seperation of Church and State proponents have come to advocate only having atheists, or anybody but Christians, who use their moral guidelines as a basis for law. If a voodoo Witchdoctor was elected Senator or President, the seperation iof Church and State group migh not understand what the hell he's basing his moral guidelines on, but they sure as hell wouldn't b***h about his religion.
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9. Power of corporations protected.
Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of have-not citizens.
Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of have-not citizens.
Corporations are neede to stimulate the economy. I don't agree with alot of things that have been done to benifit the corporate offices lately, though. In all fairness, Clinton was just about as bad when it came to this, though his prefered method was internatinal treaties.
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10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.
Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.
Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.
Organized labor has gotten their ass kicked by both parties in recent decades. As a result, there's not much to ensure that money circulates to everyone. Bush has alot of people from both parties to share the blame with for the last 20 years though. 9 and 10 are the only ines I'm a moderaqte about.
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11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts.
Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.
Ha! Universities are a safe haven for those liberals who b***h about anything and everything, but who's ideas would be lauged at in the real world, or bring catastrophe greater than they accuse Bush of if they were ever imlemented. Let sleeping dogs lie, leave the liberal lunatic fringe in their little places they isolate themselves.Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.
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12. Obsession with crime and punishment.
Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. Normal and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or traitors was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.
Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. Normal and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or traitors was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.
Ah, you mean like Democrats try to do to peaceful, law abiding gun owners? As for stong punishments, that is to get rid of the people that do nothing but destroy what the law abiding citizens have worked hard to create. How many times must some crackhead get busted for selling drugs, stealling cars, robbing people, or killing people before he is recognized as a waste of space in the prision system, waste of air, and needs to be gotten rid of?
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13. Rampant cronyism and corruption.
Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.
Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.
That is the fuel that politics has run on. Nothing ever really changes there, only the media's desire to try and smear Bush with it. Democrats, Republicans, Roman Senators, and most likely Summerian nobles all did the same exact thing.
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14. Fraudulent elections.
Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating an disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.
Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating an disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.
I already covered this one. Gore lost a legitimate election and appealed to the courts to overturn the results in typical liberal fashion. Gore was going to concede, until Clinton talked hin out of it and got him to make a legal matter out of the election. I thoght the conduct of the courts at that moment exemplified the strength and integrity out founding fathers intended the system to have to withstand anything thrown it's way.
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At the end of the article Britt added this quote:
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When facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the American flag. -- Huey Long
Anyone else besides me find these points a little alarming and disturbing when applied to America's current state?
Anyone else besides me find these points a little alarming and disturbing when applied to America's current state?
No, more of an attempt to get things back to when the country was more in it's prime back in the late '50s and early '60s (without changing civil rights back). The problem is that his original 2000 campaign promises have been sidetracked by terrorist problems.
Umm...sorry about the language.
::wonders if I'm mixed manic::
21 Oct 2005, 1:48 am
21 Oct 2005, 2:00 am
Sean wrote:
That supremacy of the military has also kept alot of people's bitchy, ret*d asses from speaking, German, Japaneese, Russian, Chineese, and Arabic!
First of all the worrying overmilitarisation is being blamed on Bush, he hasnt been there that long. That's a lot of wars to lose and languages to learn, has there been the rise and fall of so many dynasties over such a small period of time? Your coming dangerously close to doing a Bush'ism. It's funny but none of them countries are invading the middle east but they manage to speak the native languages.
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5. Rampant sexism.
[quote=Sean]Now, she could spin a globe, close her eyes, put her finger on the globe, and order a nucear strike on the coordinates where her finger are at an probably not hit anything worth giving a crap about.
[quote=Sean]Now, she could spin a globe, close her eyes, put her finger on the globe, and order a nucear strike on the coordinates where her finger are at an probably not hit anything worth giving a crap about.
[quote=Sean]How is homosexuality a sexist issue?
No government, or population for that matter, should think that killing off the future of their country is a good idea, and expect to survive as a country no more than a few generations.
To sum it up, abortion an homosexuality have nothing to offer a society. [/quote]
Good idea, start a world war but deny gay people rights because THEY will bring about the death of your country and of humanity.
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11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts.
[quote=Sean] Ha! Universities are a safe haven for those liberals who b**** about anything and everything, but who's ideas would be lauged at in the real world, or bring catastrophe greater than they accuse Bush of if they were ever imlemented. Let sleeping dogs lie, leave the liberal lunatic fringe in their little places they isolate themselves.[/quote]Yes the terribly intelligent people who learn about such a things as education happen to be mostly liberals whereas right-wing ill educated rednecks and religious fanatics from hick towns like Bush and his supporters happen to be mostly right-wing authoritarians. I wonder to myself if this is a coincidence.
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12. Obsession with crime and punishment.
[quote=Sean]Ah, you mean like Democrats try to do to peaceful, law abiding gun owners? As for stong punishments, that is to get rid of the people that do nothing but destroy what the law abiding citizens have worked hard to create. How many times must some crackhead get busted for selling drugs, stealling cars, robbing people, or killing people before he is recognized as a waste of space in the prision system, waste of air, and needs to be gotten rid of?
You still dont seem to be able to account for the fact that liberal, socially democratic countries have much lower crime rates but when in doubt preach hate and death eh?
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13. Rampant cronyism and corruption.
[quote=Sean]
That is the fuel that politics has run on. Nothing ever really changes there, only the media's desire to try and smear Bush with it. Democrats, Republicans, Roman Senators, and most likely Summerian nobles all did the same exact thing.
[quote=Sean]
That is the fuel that politics has run on. Nothing ever really changes there, only the media's desire to try and smear Bush with it. Democrats, Republicans, Roman Senators, and most likely Summerian nobles all did the same exact thing.
Try and deny it hasnt got worse since Bush came into power. As for the rest of your points they where all the usual right-wing lies and facism that ive come to expect from you and i have answered many times before but still you insist without clear logic or reason only selfish interests and hate with little facts to back it up. Bush would be proud of you im sure.
21 Oct 2005, 2:14 am
21 Oct 2005, 2:38 am
21 Oct 2005, 2:39 am
Sean wrote:
she could spin a globe, close her eyes, put her finger on the globe, and order a nucear strike on the coordinates where her finger are at an probably not hit anything worth giving a crap about.
Lovely attitude you have there, mate... I'm sure the people of wherever it is you are attacking would appreciate that.
In regard to the original topic- much of the world has been heading there for quite some time. It's pretty scary- especially the last few years, we're pretty much living in a police state. However I console myself with the fact that sooner or later this society will all fall apart. It always does... go ask the ancient romans
Wherever there is oppression, people will always rise up. It's only a matter of time.
21 Oct 2005, 2:54 am
21 Oct 2005, 3:20 am
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