Atheism vs. Agnosticism, a semantic clarification

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To claim to be a Gnostic Atheist would be quite extraordinary and would require much evidence, of which there is none.

Which is why I believe gods do not exist in that I make no claim to knowledge on the subject, and am therefore also agnostic of gods.

I consider there to be 4 categories:

1. Believes in God

2. Atheist - believes there is no God

3. Agnostic - one who doesn't know, but is searching for the answer

4. (my category) Those who couldn't case less one way or the other.

5. The knowledge of God.

God is the spirit of loving kindness.. righteousness.. justice.. peace.. wisdom.. truth and freedom.. that exists in human hearts and minds.

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“The hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you people worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know.

Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.

God is a spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

John 4:21

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Knowledge of God requires proof of God, and there just isn't any. That's why it's called "faith."

Nevertheless the Bible consistently speaks of a knowledge of God.. not a belief that God exists.. to think otherwise is an error.

If it were a belief.. how could Jesus explain God.. as he did..?

For the sake of clarity.. are you saying there is no proof that the spirit of loving kindness.. righteousness.. justice.. peace.. wisdom.. truth.. and freedom.. exists in people's hearts and minds....?

If this is the case..

What makes you believe such a thing.. ?

Is this your own personal faith.. ?

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"Now God is the Spirit and where the Spirit of God is there is Freedom."

“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.”

"He has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit in our hearts."

"Beloved ones, let us continue loving one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and gains the KNOWLEDGE of God. He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.”


2Corinthians 3:17 + John 1:18 + 2Corinthians 1:12 + 1John 4:7

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Last edited by Accelerator on 07 Dec 2008, 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

No, I'm saying there is no proof that such a spirit comes from a superior being. I believe in the innate goodness of people; I think it is in our genes, and comes from our animal ancestors, who share many of these same traits.

Let’s say we have two human beings..

One called Jesus.. who exhibits the highest of human qualities.. loving kindness.. righteousness.. justice.. peace.. wisdom.. truth.. and freedom.

And one called Adolph Hitler (the devil).. who exhibits the lowest qualities of human nature..

Cruelty.. iniquity.. injustice.. aggression.. ignorance.. lies.. and oppression.

Which of these would you consider to be the superior (human) being.. ?

Which of them.. in your opinion.. would be what Nietzsche called.. the god-man.. ?

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“Furthermore, it is you God made alive though you were dead in your trespasses and errors, in which you at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience.”

Ephesians 2:1

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“Every church is a stone on the grave of a god-man: it does not want him to rise up again under any circumstances.”

Friedrich Nietzsche



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I don't think Jesus was God, nor do I think Hitler was the Devil.

Jesus was a good man. Hitler was an evil man. But I don't think Jesus was good because God made him good, nor do I think Hitler was evil because the Devil made him evil.

...but I don't see any connection between what I wrote and what you responded

Neither do I.. in the sense you mean it.. I used the Devil symbol to represent his spirit.

For me.. God and the devil are symbols.. representing the polarity of the human spirit.. they are not supernatural entities.. but rather they are spirits that naturally operate inside us all…. spirits which are continuously creating the world we live in.. for the better.. or for the worst.

Which why the bible rightly teaches… God is inside.





I’m not thinking in terms of dualism..

I am thinking more along the lines of Occam's Razor..

The principle of removing unnecessary pluralities such as….. God and man.

I understand both God and Devil as being aspects of the Self..

They are not separate beings.. apart from us.

For this reason I do not take the ideas of theism seriously.. which means I do not consider God or the Devil to be separate.. supernatural.. entities.. rather they are symbols that represent the polarity of the human spirit..

Imagine it this way..

If your spirit.. (meaning your heart and mind).. was occupied with loving kindness.. righteousness.. justice.. peace.. wisdom.. truth.. and freedom……... would that make you an evil person.. ?

The answer is obviously.. No!

On the other hand.. if your spirit was occupied with cruelty.. iniquity.. injustice.. aggression.. ignorance.. lies.. and oppression…... would that make you a good person.. ?

Again.. the answer is obviously.. No!

My point being.. it is our inner spirit that shapes us to be the person we are..

In reality.. we all are creators.. since we all contribute to creating the world we live in.. which is why.. in the Psalms.. David wrote.. “You are gods”

In spite of how we may sometimes feel.. we are not separate.. isolated.. individuals.. because reasoning tells us the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

God then.. is a concept.. an idea.. of wholeness.. of the spirit.

The ability to see the oneness of everything.

In this sense… God is Love............. not a deity.

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"A human being is part of the whole called by us universe , a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty... We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive."

Albert Einstein

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I believe in God, but I don't believe there is any way for a living person to prove God's existence. I am still puzzled about the question of if God is good and God is all-powerful then why does evil exist, as I'm sure everybody else in the world is, but I think there must be a reason, we just don't know it yet.

I guess I'm agnostic here.

I try not to hold a militant faith for either parties unless it would involve a person subjected to violence because of a faith based party.

Then by definition, that ISN'T the god of the bible.

You can have whatever categories you want.

Objectively 2, 3, and 4 are all atheists because you do not have a belief in one or more gods.

Last edited by Legato on 10 Dec 2008, 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Neither, because I am in no position to make such a judgement. We cannot know everything, nor all possibilities of the universe. Emotionally, I'd say Hitler was a horrible person that deserved to be tortured for a finite amount of time (Goebbels to a greater degree than Hitler, mind you). Rationally, I cannot make a determination of one's humanity being "superior" than another's - but both Jesus and Hitler deserved to be punished for his crimes, as do we all.

Atheists have a positive view that there is no God (atheist literally means lack of God). Only #2 fits that definition. Your definition of Atheist is way too broad.

All I have to say is: "Oh, the power of ideas!?!"