Do you have a weird kind of empathy... impressionability?

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I have a problem that I tried to discuss with a new therapist last week. She said she's unsure it's an AS trait. It only developed in me after the age of 30. Anyways, it is a weird kind of empathy where I internalize the cognitive behaviors of others and play them in my head until I figure out what they are doing and where they are coming from. I can interpret what people want and how to interact with them after I "learn them" in this way. Basically, I copy and internalize their thought behaviors, and after a while I can build a kind of internal representation of their thought behaviors in myself, and when I'm trying to figure out what they mean or want, I run "simulations" -- push impressions through the model to see how that which comes out "feels" like. I'm not sure when I started doing this but it was not early in my adulthood. Basically, I have great sensory recall, and can replay scenes until I feel I get the nuances of the person's facial movements and body language. Then I sort of read those impressions into myself and play them until I get a feel for what that facial or body language "feels" like. After I do this for a while with someone, I become able to relate to them better.

The problem is that, two times in my past, I have had unwanted exposure to closet predators, sociopathic narcissists. In those two cases, even though the people seemed benign to others, I experienced a cognitive collapse and took a long time to recover. My internal representations, or models, of their cognitive behaviors were sinister and malevolent, like ill computer viruses I had downloaded from the internet onto an unprotected computer.

My interpretation of the psychological trauma I experienced after my exposure to the closet sociopathic predators is that these individuals have malignant, pathological social psychological personality disorders, while meantime I had no real coherent social mind because of my Asperger Syndrome. So my socially vulnerable mind's exposure to their identity and personality disordered compulsive behaviors disordered my already-unfocused social mind. Also, people with sociopathic comorbid personality disorders have a great ability to compartmentalize and lie, and act out behaviors in narrow "reality slices" that are not consistent with each other or an objective reality. So I think that my inability to compartmentalize and lie, with these highly compartmentalized and pathological cognitive behaviors in my mind, meant I couldn't control or limit these cognitive behaviors. In any event, after exposure to each of these people, I experienced a mental "collapse" so to speak, along with panic, fear and outbursts of attempts to report them as dangerous, etc, that no one believed. Several years ago, one of the two people was caught and arrested for being a sexual predator, who was engaging in sexual extortion and creating pornography with minor boys. He was a university official at the time I encountered him and he was still one at the time he was arrested and convicted nine years later. The second closet sociopath is still at large, so far as I know, and not in any trouble.

I'm with the therapist, in part, to try to fully recover to my exposure to the second sociopath. Like I said above, the therapist said she never really heard of AS people picking up and internalizing the thought behaviors of others, in order to replay them and understand what other people want and expect. It's a weird kind of empathy that I'm unsure that I was born with or developed as a compensation for my "mind blindness" into the intentions of others.

My ability to pick up and internalize the cognitive behaviors of others has me so fearful and traumatized now after these two sociopaths, that I am afraid to work and come in contact with any other people. I'm afraid of what hidden pathological problems I will find in the minds of others and that I will develop internal representations of yet more malignant social psychological disorders. For example, from this last sociopath, I've learned how to "hate" other people, and I'm having difficulty unlearning or shedding that (how do you unlearn "hate", once acquired?). I feel like my existence is poisoned more with each contact with these sociopaths.

I can't find anything in the literature about impressionability with other people's cognitive behaviors. The closest thing I found was something on a quick search today, which was posted here 2 years ago by someone who sounds similarly traumatized with some kind of hypervigilance and mental stress disorder. A quote follows:

"...This has become an obsession, something that I continuously find myself worrying about. I find myself constantly scanning my environment for the moods of others, at times looking for just the right moment to explode just because I hold everything in. I got upset on a few occasions and angered even those that are close to me, so I just ran off. What did I do? I kind of acted weird in public, not breaking the law, but just making myself known, sometimes mimicking problems associated with other mental disorders."

"I needed to get this off my shoulders. I internalize everything, which is why I rant so much. I can never clear my head, and at times everything around me seems to overwhelm me. And I tend to write from a rather arrogant point of view, like I appear to be a know-it-all. And I don't know if it's a problem with empathizing with others, because someone once told me I'm like an empath, that I can sense the moods of others. I was so good at this once during school that I knew the teacher was having a bad day. I kept questioning her, but she kept denying anything was wrong. But her attitude was different, but nobody else was picking up on it. At the end of the day, after questioning her like five times, I guess she just got fed up and said: "Yeah! I'm not in a good mood. I won't mention why. Just leave it be." But I can't communicate my own feelings. So, I hide behind disguises."

"Basically, I have to be in control. And when that control is broken, I can't stand it. It's not like the sort of control needed by a sociopath or anything, because I understand the rights of others. I understand the feelings of others in this regard."

Although the above guy doesn't say so explicitly, I feel like he is describing something very close to what I have experienced, if he were to add that what he is internalizing are the cognitive behaviors of personality disordered people around him, and that the chaos in his head is coming from these sort of "software virus" infections. What he is describing in the first paragraph is just what I feel like when I was first exposed to each of the two sociopathic abusers, and I started acting out their cognitive behaviors, leading up to my ability to interact coherently collapsing for a while. The feeling of being infected with someone else's sociopathically abusive personality disordered thought behaviors is quite literally the feeling of a demonic possession or being in a waking nightmare.

I have read that sociopathically bullied AS people are very impressionable and can start acting out the behaviors of the bullies they are exposed to as if they are impressionable to the abusive conduct. But I tend to interpret that as defensive behavior, not an "infection" (however temporary) with the pathological personality disordered cognitive behaviors. What I have experienced is more of an ability to infer, impress and then learn the cognitive behavior of others directly from others. This is how a preverbal baby learns, called "implicit learning". You learn the thought behaviors first without knowing what they mean.

Does anyone else have any experience or reference in Asperger Syndrome, similar to this "empathy" or "impressionability" to the cognitive behaviors of others? Or of being very badly psychologically traumatized from too much exposure to a closet sociopath?

I pick up entire social behaviors from others and later understand why they are good or bad

I did this a lot as a kid. I thought about what others did at school and why it made them popular. Like, if I saw someone do something nice and get a good response from another person, since this was school, the other person happened to be another child, I would do it the next day and usually not get the same results/responses. Usually I got an insult in return.
I cannot tell you how confusing this made life for me. Frustrating too. It made no sense to me at all. After many failed attempts at mimicking good and bad behaviours and getting nowhere with either, I stopped trying. After getting in trouble one too many times with the teachers, I stopped talking.
No one bothered explaining anything either. They acted like I was a bad, defective kid that would go nowhere in life and was hopeless.
When I was in high school and students were preparing to take the ACT, I asked if I should prepare, also. The response I got was don't bother you are going to end up on disability anyway which is something I don't even qualify for.
It's ridiculous!
Later I did catch up some on my own, due entirely to my own perservance and determination, my desire not to be defeated and my intense belief in myself. It definitely wasn't because of the wonderful sense of self esteem and self confidence I recieved in school!

Ephemerella, is what you describe of a metaphysical nature, as if you are a psychic "sponge"?

or are you saying you physically absorb all their external mannerisms and those mannerisms manipulate your thought processes to better understand their mental motivations?

Oddly enough, it does correspond to a kind of 'possession' which is a really bad way to find out what others are like. I'm a 'sponge' which is why I keep away from people and their thoughts, if I can, I'm too easily influenced. I don't 'become' them as you seem to.

Sociopaths are a common encounter for AS people - they see us coming. It's best to learn how to identify one early. Usually they approach you and cultivate the relationship.

I pick up entire social behaviors from others and later understand why they are good or bad

That's about me I guess... It always takes me some time to analyse them.

I'm out at the vet holding sick dog & typing on my iPhone but will try best I can short response. Met last sociopath who was having many affairs and had multiple personality thing going on. She dumped life story into me, cornering me & telling me about her mental health care. She was a secular Muslim from Bangladesh who fell into some relationship with a guy who seduced wealthy Muslim women then blackmailed them b/c their families would kill them if they had sex. Anyways her family found out she married him & had it annulled & sent her to states where she got engineering PhD & he came to states & they remarried. Then he dumped her when he got perm resident status & she lived in double disgrace. When I met Her she was mentally & psychologically abusive sex addict running around dc having affairs w/ defense research scientists she met off craigslist. She was a bitter poisonous sexual con artist & Machiavellian sociopathic narcissist. Probably the sociopathy & narcissism was lifelong & was cause of her falling in with the sexual blackmailer. She was having sex with 3 men that I know of in the UMD campus, 2 mathematicians & a mechanical engineering prof, with a different personality & narrative for each. After about 3 mos of exposure to her I started having anxiety attacks like from my past PTSD from last sociopath trauma. Tried to tell my prof she was harassing me, lying to everybody & having sex all over. But he was entranced with his little charismatic, compassionate & sensual mistress. He clearly didn't believe anything I told him. I had no clue how to process anything she told me or did to me (it has taken 3 years to develop just the insights I have now. Back then I just was overwhelmed & having anxiety attacks & lost the ability to think clearly

But after about 2 mos after the anxiety attacks started I started going out & finding men -- wealthy single men & the kind she would want, not the kind I would want. After a while I realized I was uninterested in the men & dropped them but still was promiscuous for some time. I stopped doing my work well, just tried to figure out all the disturbing incoherent junk she unloaded onto me.

I realize now that multiple personality people have different realities for each personality & she had different worlds of reality for each one. Since she was a charismatic (albeit a vicious ugly one in her behavior toward me) each personality had a compelling & dramatic reality. So it was extremely disorienting to be exposed to her. Like being in a universe where reality twisted & changed.

It is my feeling that what happened with her and the previous siciopathic harasser is that I started SYSTEMIZING the way they twisted & warped reality & how their personalities & minds work. Once I start systemizing -- at least inthe early analysis phase of a "special interest" I have very little awareness & control. And with this material I had the info in my head. Not so easy to turn off systemizing a special interest when the info for problem solving is already known. It's not like turning off the TV if your special interest is the Simpsons show. Since when I get involved deeply in a special interest that is a complex system I will change & become like that system. Like a deep love affair where you are changed by the man's personality and what he exposes you to. So by systemizing the minds and mental problems
a of the sociopathy, on top of studying their expressions and building internal imitations of their affective behavior, I integrated some of their cognitive behaviors into my own mind. In particular, those that I lacked due to AS. Like personality and identity affective functions --those of a sociopath. Fortunately, I have a conscience and meaning in my life so I'm not going to turn into a sociopath. But the hatred & anger & etc I feel is unpleasant. Plus I'm not wired for sociopathy so any unpleasant artifacts seem to fade with time.

But I do have more social insights and self awareness and affective skills too that I can use to socialize better. Those skills will presumably remain in me if I keep practicing & developing them on purpose.

[quote="ephemerella"]I have a problem that I tried to discuss with a new therapist last week. She said she's unsure it's an AS trait. It only developed in me after the age of 30. Anyways, it is a weird kind of empathy where I internalize the cognitive behaviors of others and play them in my head until I figure out what they are doing and where they are coming from. <snip>

I understand this phenomenon because I've seen it before. Listen: I am about to pronounce a heresy; you're psychic.

Specifically, you're an Empathic psychic: you pick up on other people's feelings -- emotions and sensations. If you don't learn to develop selective shields, those feelings can overwhelm you -- causing precisely the psychological distortions you describe. What you need is training in developing and controlling your psychic talent. I'd recommend the ominously-named but actually harmless Silva Mind Control group, or a good school of Meditative Yoga, or the Church of Religious Science (*not* to be confused with the Christian Scientists), or any good martial-arts dojo that puts a lot of emphasis on developing "chi", or anyone recommended by the Rhine Institute of Duke University. There are various Neopagan groups who study and train psychic ability, but they're not well organized and you'll have to search through a lot of them to find a group that covers the particular training you need.

Yes, I know that proper, respectable, Reputable scientists insist that psychic phenomena don't exist. The reasons for this attitude are, frankly, historical and political rather than scientific; there are, in fact, carloads of data -- see the Rhine Institute again -- demonstrating that yes, psychic phenomena *do* exist. (For a quick proof, see the book "Soul Survivor", which came out just last June.) No, it is not necessary to subscribe to any particular religion to admit that psychic phenomena exist.

I've noticed that a lot of people who consider themselves Autistic or Aspergers have similar psychic sensitivities, and I have to wonder if the phenomena aren't connected. In fact, I'd like to ask you other members out there: how many of you have had psychic experiences?

--Leslie <;)))><

OMFG! I didn't think Asperger's could give me any more "flashbulb" moments (there have been so many) but here it is again. I can scarcely believe it.
Yes, I'm sure this is an AS trait. No, I'm sure its not psychic. I'll read the other posts later when I've slept, but...

I told my new therapist last week (coincidence any?) that I adapt my speaking style to match who I'm with, for example if they cuss a lot then so will I, or if they hate cussing I'll avoid it, I'm happy either way. He responded kinda weirdly IMO and asked if that meant I wasn't really being *me* so I said, hey, you're talking to me in a deliberately calm voice, but you're still you, aren't you? Anyway it set me thinking and reviewing events from my life, which I do a lot.

For many years I've found when watching movies, I find my mind becomes impressionable to mirror the main characters. Mentally its like mimicking someone's facial expression to help work out what emotion it conveys. However for this reason I avoid watching movies where the main character is really evil, really depressed, or - worst - really insane. Because after the movie I feel like it's rubbed off on me and takes a while to ground myself again, and I hate feeling insane or out of control. I believe this is the same thing your post is talking about, and since I'm talking about movies, there's no possibility that its anything psychic.

Maybe this is how we emulate the NT form of empathy, so we can read emotions without being told what they are, by simulating their whole personality within ours.

Ooo, maybe I need to collect movies where the main character is totally awesome, I always feel at my best after watching those!

Heheheheh. Hey, everybody -- at least as kids -- does that, not just A/As. Mimicking what you see adults of your species doing is a common trait among all mammals; where do you think the term "copycat" came from? Imitating the speech-pattern of whoever you're speaking to is simply speaking the other guy's "language", just as you'd try to speak French if you were in France. In the case of humans, adults-of-our-species can also be watched on video, let alone on live stage.

However, picking up the other guy's personality so completely that you damn-near *become* that personality is something else again. Doing it to the point where you can predict the other guy's behavior is something else, too.

There's no reason that intense mimicry and psychic phenomena can't both be true. Where the one leaves off and the other begins is a good question.

--Leslie <;)))><

This is an awesome thread: ) Its the same with me but my level of mimicry is somewhat less, whats of particular interest though is that Im an emotional sponge, for some reason Ive always been able to "detect" a person's mood with little or even no direct interaction and then its like it presses on my brain. The stronger the emotion, the more it affects me, sometimes to the point of shutting down. I guess thats why I hung out with the people that always made jokes in high school. I dont think its a psychic thing but I cant fully explain how the replication takes place. Im so relieved there are others like this.

[quote="arondight"] Im an emotional sponge, for some reason Ive always been able to "detect" a person's mood with little or even no direct interaction and then its like it presses on my brain. The stronger the emotion, the more it affects me, sometimes to the point of shutting down.

Hmmmm. This is exactly the way proven (by the Rhine Institute tests) psychics claim to feel the "vibes" of other people's emotions. The descriptions match perfectly.

--Leslie <;)))><

Perhaps a more rational explaination is that they are so good at attention to detail that they notice subtle patterns in behaviour/facial expressions, etc that other people aren't even aware of. Sounds like something someone with AS would be good at, and no psychic powers are required.

This is so pertinent to me and was something I was thinking a great deal about earlier today, enough for me to get past my fear of actually posting anything...

These topics under discussion have clear similarities to echolalia and echopraxia, which are both obviously autistic traits, so it would make sense that echoing emotions or speech patterns is also an AS trait.

This morning I went to church and found out that an elderly member of our small congregation had passed away after suffering from several months of pancreatic cancer. I did not know him beyond saying hello on Sunday, but I could smell the sadness in the room, and I spent the entirety of the service focusing on keeping myself from crying. The feeling was overwhelming, but I know that it did not originate inside my human unit.

I'm fairly sure that the human unit has sensory mechanisms that extend far past the concrete "touch/taste/hear/smell/see," and since ASDs are typically characterized by a miscalibration of these sensory mechanisms in one direction or the other, it makes sense that this hypo- or hyper-sensitivity extends into these other senses. For example: my sense of smell is hypersensitive. I smell things in high definition, and this can get really unpleasant at times. What if other humans/animals give off some frequency based on the emotion they are feeling, and humans have some sort of sensory receptor for this? Wouldn't it make sense that many of us with ASDs are hypersensitive to this, and thus would absorb/feel/smell this sensory data with a much higher degree of detail than the NT population?

I have had so many instances of feeling psychic, particularly in the past few years; but this generally comes from thinking what a person is about to say immediately before they say it (and this is only uncanny when the other person is about to spit out a non sequitur). I am sure that things we currently describe as psychic phenomena exist, and that there are scientific explanations for them all, probably involving these sensory receptors that detect higher-frequency information. What if one's thought-patterns generate specific frequencies, so that if you are about to blurt out "TOASTER PASTRY" for no apparent reason, my hypersensitive thought-frequency receptor hears you thinking about toaster pastries, and so in the split-second before you blurt it out, I think about a Pop Tart for no apparent reason?

I hardly ever post because I'm afraid of saying the wrong thing or seeming crazy, and I'm definitely afraid to hit SUBMIT because I feel like I'm doing both of those things, but oh well.

Actually, Frogs, your hypothesis makes very good sense. There is overwhelming evidence that psychic phenomena do exist, but no one has figured out the mechanism. Your theory definitely covers all the bases.

I'll risk make a further hypothesis: "psychic" energy is not on the electromagnetic spectrum, but is a different form of energy altogether -- and I'd make a guess at Dark Energy. This would explain why (another Rhine Institute experiment) proven psychics are capable of sending/receiving messages right through a Faraday Cage.

I do agree with your theory of sensitive receptors in the human brain possibly being more sensitive in A/As -- perhaps as compensation for poorer reception in other senses, like blind people who develop a highly acute sense of hearing.

--Leslie <;)))><

I might subconsciously pick up on someone's mannerisms but I cannot predict the mind of a sociopath.

Definitely Aspie trait for me

Or maybe the lack of behavior/facial expressions recognition make us build a sophisticated workaround

If you search for an esoteric explanation, you should check for Voodoo Energy Vampire