Question for fellow atheists, and others if you like.

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Legato
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16 Dec 2008, 9:45 pm

To preface this, I do not accept the claim that gods exist (lack belief, atheist). I also happen to believe gods do not exist (have a belief, strong atheist). I do not accept the claim that souls exist, however I do not also actively believe souls do not exist - perhaps for the following reason.

In all of my "soul-searching", for lack of a better word, the nature of the world has come to make complete sense to me - except for one thing. I'll try not to make it seem like I'm asserting that I am somehow different than my physical body, because I'm not - although it often seems that way.

I get this feeling of... alienation... sometimes. It feels like I'm completely separate from the rest of the world, and in many ways I am. I am a biological form of life that operates on naturalistic mechanisms, etc, I have no objection to that. The objection I do have is that, well....

Why is this one me? "This one" referring to this biological organism named Legato. I completely understand the biology and psychology of the matter, but I'm having a hard time coping with the confusion I feel when I try and comprehend what makes this one me. I don't mind the prospect of having not existed prior to my conception, but I fail to see the connection between the development of an infant and the subsequent rise of unique consciousness as it pertains to the individual, and, hence, me. What makes this consciousness mine? Why do I not have the consciousness of another biological entity?

Why is this one me?



skafather84
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16 Dec 2008, 9:50 pm

who says you are you?

it's theoretically possible another you could have existed previously but given that it'd be another time period, the stimuli your brain would have encountered growing up would have been drastically different resulting in you being drastically different.


you have to take into account everything with a human developing.


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Legato
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16 Dec 2008, 9:54 pm

And there you are positing a soul - or at least some form of reincarnation or consciousness that moves from human to human, am I right?

But to be honest, maybe I am as well... All I know is that, as convinced I may be of other things, this problem is one that I simply have no idea on.



skafather84
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16 Dec 2008, 10:01 pm

Legato wrote:
And there you are positing a soul - or at least some form of reincarnation or consciousness that moves from human to human, am I right?

But to be honest, maybe I am as well... All I know is that, as convinced I may be of other things, this problem is one that I simply have no idea on.



a soul....or just really really complex wiring that is sensative to not only physical contact but also visual stimulation, aural stimulation, and changes with all such stimulation.


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Legato
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16 Dec 2008, 10:11 pm

I see what you mean, but that doesn't really answer my question. Regardless of change over the 21 years of my life, this one is still me.



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16 Dec 2008, 10:18 pm

Legato wrote:
I see what you mean, but that doesn't really answer my question. Regardless of change over the 21 years of my life, this one is still me.



you should have a chat with dr manhattan sometime.


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Legato
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16 Dec 2008, 10:25 pm

Who's that?



skafather84
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16 Dec 2008, 10:27 pm

Legato wrote:
Who's that?



sorry, referencing a fictional character from a graphic novel series called watchmen. he goes through alienation throughout the book.


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patternist
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16 Dec 2008, 11:07 pm

Legato wrote:
To preface this, I do not accept the claim that gods exist (lack belief, atheist). I also happen to believe gods do not exist (have a belief, strong atheist). I do not accept the claim that souls exist, however I do not also actively believe souls do not exist - perhaps for the following reason.

In all of my "soul-searching", for lack of a better word, the nature of the world has come to make complete sense to me - except for one thing. I'll try not to make it seem like I'm asserting that I am somehow different than my physical body, because I'm not - although it often seems that way.

I get this feeling of... alienation... sometimes. It feels like I'm completely separate from the rest of the world, and in many ways I am. I am a biological form of life that operates on naturalistic mechanisms, etc, I have no objection to that. The objection I do have is that, well....

Why is this one me? "This one" referring to this biological organism named Legato. I completely understand the biology and psychology of the matter, but I'm having a hard time coping with the confusion I feel when I try and comprehend what makes this one me. I don't mind the prospect of having not existed prior to my conception, but I fail to see the connection between the development of an infant and the subsequent rise of unique consciousness as it pertains to the individual, and, hence, me. What makes this consciousness mine? Why do I not have the consciousness of another biological entity?

Why is this one me?


I don't have anything but questions on this, and my questions mirror yours. It seems intuitive to believe in a "soul" becuase the "soul" idea references individual consciousness.
Just acknowledge that this is one of my (only) issues with atheistic materialism. There seems to be something so individuated in people, ie "Bob" will react in a typical "Bob" way to situation A and situation B, but "Bob" and "Tom" will both react differently to situation A. Experience, genetics, explain it partially, but not completely.
I think research on the etymology of the word "soul", or the history of the "soul" idea, might help define it in my world, or help me understand why all the religious connotationa. I've just been too lazy to do it. I'd like to know when the word came about, to know what it was tied to, at its origin.



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16 Dec 2008, 11:13 pm

Exactly, patternist. You know, it almost seems like this world would make much more sense if I wasn't in it - because then I wouldn't have to worry about what makes this one me. Everything but this question makes sense!

And, to clarify, my question of "what makes this one me" is more to the point of, why is the consciousness that I inhabit, or am, not in the body of another person. I am aware that the system must exist in a state, but what makes THIS ONE different from the other ones, such that I am this one?

*sigh* I haven't been able to stop thinking about this for a good 36 hours... halp pl0x?



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16 Dec 2008, 11:18 pm

i do believe i have a soul and a spirit. i think there different, the soul for me is who you are. the spirit is the oxegen the alien blew in my nostrils, it doesnt necessarily have to be everlasting because i think i was genetically engeneeried


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skafather84
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16 Dec 2008, 11:28 pm

Legato wrote:
Exactly, patternist. You know, it almost seems like this world would make much more sense if I wasn't in it - because then I wouldn't have to worry about what makes this one me. Everything but this question makes sense!

And, to clarify, my question of "what makes this one me" is more to the point of, why is the consciousness that I inhabit, or am, not in the body of another person. I am aware that the system must exist in a state, but what makes THIS ONE different from the other ones, such that I am this one?

*sigh* I haven't been able to stop thinking about this for a good 36 hours... halp pl0x?



i'm getting lost in the wording. it sounds like you're asking "why am i here" or "what makes me me" but in a very convoluted way...like a combination of existential, identity, and alienation maybe? sorry, i'm just trying to get straight what's being said because i think i'm not understanding correctly.


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Legato
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16 Dec 2008, 11:41 pm

You're right, actually. And it's very confusing to me as well. The only thing about it that I know for certain is that I don't know why this one is me, as opposed to another one being me.

When I talk about "this one", it's Legato. "Another one" could be skafather or patternist.

When I talk about "me", I'm not talking about Legato. I'm talking about the consciousness of Legato, the homunculus, if you will. Why is my homunculus experiencing Legato, and not another person.



skafather84
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17 Dec 2008, 1:41 am

Legato wrote:
You're right, actually. And it's very confusing to me as well. The only thing about it that I know for certain is that I don't know why this one is me, as opposed to another one being me.

When I talk about "this one", it's Legato. "Another one" could be skafather or patternist.

When I talk about "me", I'm not talking about Legato. I'm talking about the consciousness of Legato, the homunculus, if you will. Why is my homunculus experiencing Legato, and not another person.



should occupy that space with something else. all you'll get right now is a circular answer that won't be sufficient. my advice: be patient and be proactive in defining yourself in the meantime.

we're all insane. just don't think about it too much.


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17 Dec 2008, 2:44 am

Legato wrote:
When I talk about "me", I'm not talking about Legato. I'm talking about the consciousness of Legato, the homunculus, if you will. Why is my homunculus experiencing Legato, and not another person.


That's social evolution. You yourself are autonamous. You can still be autonamous and yet be classified as an autonamaton though, but I'm not calling you such. This can also be explained as qualia in some instances, but that may be difficult for a physicalist. Say in the provided quote, if you could be of a singular mind, you wouldn't be able to view the world in such a perspective -you'd be living the life of a drone. This could be viewed as the same structure that appears in nature, especially like that of the bee's hierarchy/ hive complex . You'd have a job, and that would be it, no art, no pleasure, no freedom, just perfunctory consciousness.

Unless your talking about telepathy or something? And good luck there. :)



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17 Dec 2008, 6:21 am

Legato wrote:
Why is my homunculus experiencing Legato, and not another person.

Because "you" are the product of "your" body, and everything it has ever experienced.
.