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raggle-taggle-gypsy
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26 Dec 2008, 8:30 am

I never understood the meaning of the phrase until I had one a few months ago. I was living in Jerusalem, and had moved out of my house into a hostel. I was surrounded by very devout and very intelligent Christians.
One evening I was sitting out on the balcony with a fashionably Atheistic Frenchman. We were talking about God and existence when one of the Christians overheard us and decided to join in.
In the beginning, I thought the French man was arrogant. He told me the concept of god was most likely stupid, as if he had calculated the probabilities. He said that on the chance that god exists, he would be granted entry into heaven because he was a “good man”

This was where Christian interjected. He was a simple man from Georgia USA. He made an analogy comparing heaven to a passport control booth at an airport. You can get on a plane to Israel, be as good as a white, non terrorist person can be, but unless you have a passport, they won’t let you in.
He said Heaven was the same deal with heaven. Unless you have the passport, you don’t get in. According to his reading of the bible, the passport is complete submission of your will to Jesus.

This scared me. Apart from the arrogance, I thought very similar to the Frenchman. I don’t know if God exists, cares or intervenes, but I hope that he does. I don’t follow the bible, but I try to follow my conscience and would hope that should heaven exist, then I’ll be granted entry. But according to the Georgian man’s criteria, I won’t be.
Now, I can’t know if heaven exists, so to give up my autonomy in this life on the condition that I might get something great in the next, is a big leap of faith to take. But maybe that’s what God wants – only the people who are prepared to take that leap of faith – maybe not even the ones who were born into it.

IT’S IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW. My entire existence might be leading me to an eternal lake of fire, just like the fools at school who had so much fun kicking frogs and not doing homework are now working in s**t jobs.
Whatever belief system I choose, it requires a judgement that I can only guess at. That’s the definition of torture.
I spent three days in a serious state of worry and confusion, but resolved to defer the decision for a while. I’m not constantly worried at the moment, but I see no way out of this paradox...


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Averick
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26 Dec 2008, 11:02 am

If it's any consolation, the thief who was strung up with Jesus on the right was repentant and truly resolved before the end of his life, and allowed entrance into heaven. He had no prior religious experience before that. I'm sure this is no more than a ploy of religious servitude on behalf of the American you've seen, they always do that and selectively forget certain biblical stories to contradict themselves. This parable isn't a reason to live a life of wickedness, either.



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26 Dec 2008, 11:15 am

I think the Georgian man had (perhaps accidentally) left out part of the story, that it is possible to get in, though not by the means you perhaps expected. The way it works, Christ has not required you to be perfect, as He knows you never will be. In a sense, all He's looking for is the admittance to the fact that you've done wrong and need His help, and that's when He gives you the passport, so to speak.

I would go and do some research, particularly on Christianity, and see whether or not it's true. You'll be particularly surprised at what you find. If anything, you'll relieve yourself of the idea that it's impossible to know.



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26 Dec 2008, 11:47 am

I've heard quite a few Christian's who'd debate that being a morally well-grounded person means more than the technicality of 'did you believe in Jesus in your life?'. The argument they bring up is that when Jesus said that no one could go to the father aside from through himself, it was never stated that the people had to make the declaration, more that Jesus saved all with his crucifixion - assuming he only saved Christian's per say may be a bit of a leap.

Figure on this though, in this life you have your set of circumstances, your own struggles, and yes at a certain point you will inherently want to give back to the world around you as best you can as a means of fulfillment. In truth we're all really agnostic - no one really knows, or at least a very small few who'll constantly tell you that they wish they didn't because it comes too easy to them at that point (which I don't know, that's like saying "Geez, I wish I didn't have so much money" - leaving salvation to serendipity is one of the creepy things about religion that still really bothers me). At that rate though, you're best off just being the best person you can be, if you feel like you have it in you to be a good Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc. then do so, overall though I think the balance is struck when you get to the point where you're at your best and can really say "At this point I'm just as happy going to heaven or hell - this is me and there's nothing I'm ashamed of, if God accepts me great, if he doesn't he's likely not my kind of guy anyway".



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26 Dec 2008, 11:50 am

Of course, the foregoing presumes the existance of Heaven, Jesus, God, and all the rest.


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26 Dec 2008, 11:54 am

why would you want to spend eternity with a God who wants millions of good souls to burn forever, only because they had the guts to think rationally and not follow the herd?

I'd give that God the finger...


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raggle-taggle-gypsy
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26 Dec 2008, 1:16 pm

anna-banana wrote:
why would you want to spend eternity with a God who wants millions of good souls to burn forever, only because they had the guts to think rationally and not follow the herd?

I've considered that, it's noble but I pick my fights carefully. Then again, God might even respect the balls. This is my problem. I CAN'T KNOW.

Anyway, please don't say 'herd' when you talk about religious people. They're not all Bush votin' gun totin' American caricatures. Most of the world doesn't even live there. You talk as if your rationality isn't also based on some faith, like all these trendy athiests aren't just following another shepard. Please :roll:

I'm going to read the bible some time. I think it's inevitable with such an old text that people would come to wildly different interpretations, so I don't disrespect the Georgian. He certaily seemed like he was trying to scare me, but it was for my own good. My problem isn't with interpretaions of Christianity, I know enough about it to know I want nothing to do with it. The whole point of it is subservience and I couldn't live my life like that. My problem is whether or not it's required for an afterlife that may not even exist. I can't know. For me it's not enough to forget about questions we think we can't answer. We don't know the answers, but we don't know we won't find the answers if we try hard enough. My life could be consumed with questioning, but it may be enough for eternal salvation which maybe only a tiny few peopl ever get.

I don't know if there is a god, but neither do I know that he's a nice guy. He razed whole villages in the Old Testament, he allows countless horrors to happen today. I don't know that this world isn't some sick teenager's little backyard experiment, or some horrible army endurance test.

There's no cure for this


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anna-banana
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26 Dec 2008, 1:26 pm

raggle-taggle-gypsy wrote:

Anyway, please don't say 'herd' when you talk about religious people. They're not all Bush votin' gun totin' American caricatures. Most of the world doesn't even live there. You talk as if your rationality isn't also based on some faith, like all these trendy athiests aren't just following another shepard. Please :roll:


some people don't have the herd instinct and they base their opinions on facts, not on what someone else had said. it so happens that many atheists belong to this group.

Quote:

I don't know if there is a god, but neither do I know that he's a nice guy. He razed whole villages in the Old Testament, he allows countless horrors to happen today. I don't know that this world isn't some sick teenager's little backyard experiment, or some horrible army endurance test.


there are many different Gods, the Old Testament one isn't one of the nicest. if I were you, I'd go for Zeus :wink:


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26 Dec 2008, 1:28 pm

raggle-taggle-gypsy wrote:
I never understood the meaning of the phrase until I had one a few months ago. I was living in Jerusalem, and had moved out of my house into a hostel. I was surrounded by very devout and very intelligent Christians.
One evening I was sitting out on the balcony with a fashionably Atheistic Frenchman. We were talking about God and existence when one of the Christians overheard us and decided to join in.
In the beginning, I thought the French man was arrogant. He told me the concept of god was most likely stupid, as if he had calculated the probabilities. He said that on the chance that god exists, he would be granted entry into heaven because he was a “good man”

This was where Christian interjected. He was a simple man from Georgia USA. He made an analogy comparing heaven to a passport control booth at an airport. You can get on a plane to Israel, be as good as a white, non terrorist person can be, but unless you have a passport, they won’t let you in.
He said Heaven was the same deal with heaven. Unless you have the passport, you don’t get in. According to his reading of the bible, the passport is complete submission of your will to Jesus.

This scared me. Apart from the arrogance, I thought very similar to the Frenchman. I don’t know if God exists, cares or intervenes, but I hope that he does. I don’t follow the bible, but I try to follow my conscience and would hope that should heaven exist, then I’ll be granted entry. But according to the Georgian man’s criteria, I won’t be.
Now, I can’t know if heaven exists, so to give up my autonomy in this life on the condition that I might get something great in the next, is a big leap of faith to take. But maybe that’s what God wants – only the people who are prepared to take that leap of faith – maybe not even the ones who were born into it.

IT’S IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW. My entire existence might be leading me to an eternal lake of fire, just like the fools at school who had so much fun kicking frogs and not doing homework are now working in sh** jobs.
Whatever belief system I choose, it requires a judgement that I can only guess at. That’s the definition of torture.
I spent three days in a serious state of worry and confusion, but resolved to defer the decision for a while. I’m not constantly worried at the moment, but I see no way out of this paradox...



your first mistake was listening to a devout christian from the southern US.


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26 Dec 2008, 1:30 pm

raggle-taggle-gypsy wrote:
I've considered that, it's noble but I pick my fights carefully. Then again, God might even respect the balls. This is my problem. I CAN'T KNOW.



wasting your time worrying about knowing would be more of a disrespect to the life you've been granted and to your free will. if you need it, go for it. if you can think rationally and demand proof, then be happy with being a good man.


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26 Dec 2008, 1:34 pm

I think I've suffered some.

One of them was about the pervasiveness of moral judgment, and the inability to infallibly find morality, and included questions on how this thing could even emerge. So, I was trapped without good or evil to refer to, but still a strong sense that I needed those concepts to function.

Another was after something terrible happened to me. I felt like I needed to address it like something in my being would break if I did not, but I felt as if God and goodness itself opposed me(to me was a rather big thing that happened). I chose my own path, despite the feeling of massive repercussions, and in doing so rejected the concept of good for nothing other than my will.

I might be the kind of person who will tend to suffer existential crises, as I think I started having issues with these problems since middle school. In any case, I don't feel like talking any more on these feelings.



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26 Dec 2008, 1:38 pm

anna-banana wrote:
why would you want to spend eternity with a God who wants millions of good souls to burn forever, only because they had the guts to think rationally and not follow the herd?

I'd give that God the finger...


To me its far more likely that God either a) is nothing like that and practices better judgment than we're even capable of, or alternately b) doesn't exist. Saying that he'd send good atheists to hell over a technicality in a world where he did everything he could to make his presence ambiguous and fairy-talish to many - he'd be far more like Dox's favorite tow truck driver and when you think about it couldn't have let the world stand as it is today, would have been really anal about creating us and the world we live in as a very black and white place, and I have a feeling that anyone who shouted obscenities at a God like that would be ashed pretty quick. A God like that's just a bit too dull-edged and uncreative for us to have what we do in front of us.

The world as it is means that he knows its a very hard and miserable place, when we lash out at him in agony he's quite likely thinking "No worries, I would too", and I have a feeling - and this is again something I've heard from many of the people who I find to be very well thought out on this - the atheists who are making this world a better place and have become atheists for noble reasons (ie. the proof leads them there) rather than dodging accountability will likely find themselves in heaven along with anyone else who really aligned themselves with good and self-sacrifice. If anything, with God having the sense of humor he does, he may well have a very succint purpose for atheists in this world - to make believers think a hell of a lot more about the practical matters of their faith than they had historically.

I just take our agony and confusion in the here and now and something restricted to this tiny little sphere, that when we leave everything will likely be ok as long as we really cared and did what we could to show as much.



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26 Dec 2008, 1:46 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

To me its far more likely that God either a) is nothing like that and practices better judgment than we're even capable of, or alternately b) doesn't exist.


I can agree with that :)


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raggle-taggle-gypsy
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26 Dec 2008, 2:09 pm

anna-banana wrote:
raggle-taggle-gypsy wrote:

Anyway, please don't say 'herd' when you talk about religious people. They're not all Bush votin' gun totin' American caricatures. Most of the world doesn't even live there. You talk as if your rationality isn't also based on some faith, like all these trendy athiests aren't just following another shepard. Please :roll:


some people don't have the herd instinct and they base their opinions on facts, not on what someone else had said. it so happens that many atheists belong to this group.[quote]

What do facts have to do with anything? Facts have nothing to do with God. It's all guesswork. You talk about the Herd as if we all live among Christians. Most athiests don't.


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Ara, what do I care for me goose feathered bed?
What do I care for blankets?
Tonight I lie in a wide open field,
in the arms of me raggle taggle gypsy-o


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26 Dec 2008, 2:21 pm

raggle-taggle-gypsy wrote:
Facts have nothing to do with God. It's all guesswork.


if you admit that it's all guesswork then why do you trouble yourself over it?


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skafather84
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26 Dec 2008, 2:25 pm

anna-banana wrote:
raggle-taggle-gypsy wrote:
Facts have nothing to do with God. It's all guesswork.


if you admit that it's all guesswork then why do you trouble yourself over it?



mass hysteria is a phenomenon not to be scoffed at.


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