Stimming/Fidgeting

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There's something that really puzzles me...

Everyone stims/fidgets, whatever their neurology. Many stim behaviors can be practiced by either autistics or NTs. But why is it that hand-flapping and hand-wringing don't seem to be heard of very much among NTs, if all stimming/fidgeting in all neurological profiles has a common origin. Do NT babies do these and then grow out of them as they age and take cues from the outside world about stims that fly under the radar like leg-shaking and thumb-twiddling? Or is it something that appeals to certain sensory pathways that only certain autistics at certain stages in their development, but virtually no NTs, feel the need to soothe? It puzzles me...because I play with my necklaces and other objects, shake a leg or foot, pace, even rock a little bit...all things that sound a lot like what some of you guys do, which suggests that NT fidgeting and autistic stimming are basically the same thing...but I've never done, or even seen, flapping and wringing, and from what I've read not all of you guys do those either. So I'm wondering if there's something more specific, or less common, behind those particular stims.

This is fascinating. Before I comment, though, would you please clarify something: what is "hand flapping?" I don't know whether I do it or not, because I can never find a definition of what exactly the motion is. I'd love a clarification.

Me too me too.

Just did a search on "autistic hand flapping images" hoping to see a picture, and I checked out the Wikipedia article on autism which made a reference to flapping ARMS, which I would imagine is what you'd do if you're pretending to fly like a bird, or doing jumping jacks but without the jumping. So that's my best guess as to what it is...and if that is what it is...then unless you count jumping jacks as a stim, it's not particularly common among NTs in most circumstances that I've observed. I, for one, don't do it unless I'm doing jumping jacks. But for some reason I have pictures in my mind of NT babies, like my youngest cousin when she was 1 1/2, moving their arms up and down for a second or two but not for an extended period of time as one would see done in jumping jacks. Hence my thinking that the monkey-see-monkey-do mechanism of NTs may suppress this particular stim. If so, it may be part of the process of learning body language, analogous to the process of learning regular language where the baby stops speaking phonemes that are not used in his or her native language(s).

I do think predilections to some stims depend on neurology, though - e.g. spinning. I have seen NTs beyond toddlerhood do this one, at least while they're still children: my little sister was known to do it sometimes when she was younger, whereas my older sister and I were never much into it and even used to playfully tease her about it. I have my pacing (which has annoyed roommates and people at my bus stop in the past) and my necklace-twiddling...my older sister has her knitting and repetitive music that she likes when she's tired. How much an individual does a certain type of stim may depend on which nerve pathways build up the most metaphorical "static."

I wonder...what would an NT adult or older child who has the same staticky pathways as an autistic arm-flapper do instead of arm-flapping? Jumping jacks? Spinning you could probably still get away with alone, or in your computer chair, as an adult. Or if you do ballet dancing or figure skating.

My tendency to squeeze and pull and twist things sometimes might be a variant on hand-wringing...I sometimes even pull on my fingers, and wouldn't be that surprised if I have engaged in actual hand-wringing without thinking about or realizing it. Thinking about it today kind of gave me a mild urge to do it, and as I've been writing this piece I've been stopping to pull and twist on my left thumb a couple times. So, there may not be very much that's specific to the autism spectrum involved.

I would suspect that obvious and repetitive hand-flapping and rocking are less socially acceptable stims and therefore are curbed. They also might not be the sensation the NT is seeking. Mini-NTs (kids) are often more active running and jumping, etc. But we seem to choose many of the weird stims and perform them repetitively. It might be the sensation that "weird" stims tend to produce maybe.

Plus, I've noticed many NTs are content with smaller stims. I, myself, feel the need often for the larger ones, rocking and flapping included.

That's my guess. Something about a difference in the brain requiring more frequent and "heavier" (and hence weirder) stims to achieve that sensation.

I concur with Sophist that a/A (autistics, Aspergians) tend to engage in more intense, and therefore more obvious and weird-seeming, stims than NTs. It seems quite probable to me that the stims that soothe NTs are qualitatively different from a/A stims, which is what makes NT stims (foot tapping, finger drumming) seem normal and a/A stims (rocking, flapping) seem weird in an NT world.

I myself am a "rocker." I only recently started allowing myself to rock in public again, and then it was just a mild swaying, much less pronounced than what I do at home. Nonetheless, my husband noticed it the minute he walked in and commented on it. Mild as it seemed to me, it still seemed "odd" in the NT world.

As for hand-flapping: I'm not sure exactly what is meant by this term either, but I've always imagined something more like moving just the hands rapidly up and down, not the whole arm. This is also something I do when I am annoyed, but more in the sense of "stop that, go away" aimed at my loud children, or to express frustration if someone doesn't understand what I'm saying or keeps droning on about a topic and I want them to shush. I've always considered it a more polite way of saying "jeez, would you please just SHUT UP?!?" . The energy of my frustration has to go somewhere, so it comes out my hands instead of my mouth.

Many of the ladies on the Rikki Lake show demonstrate quite closely to what an Autistic hand flapping action would look like. And is generally followed up by a repetitive comment, "talk to the hand, because the face aint listening." Which coincidently is another trait demonstrated by Autistic types. The unwillingness/inability to give eye contact, and refusal to have face to face communication.

Two more well known hand flappers were moe, of three stooges fame, and W.C. fields.


These examples, however you may interpret them are not designed for humor.

These are the images that pop into my head when i read about how you guys and your stereotypical gestures, such as hand flapping.

On e other image i get is in a cartoon whenever the poor schmoo is going to fall off the cliff he starts to do this hand flap thing. But i have never seen any human do that, nor have i ever seen any human fall off a cliff.


Also, i did notice that the origional auther in this post kept referring to 'you guys';

It is ok by me i am not offended. I was wondering if you have been diagnosed with any of the spectrum (were not sure what to call em's)? Because if you have, i sense a little shame. Which is also ok, and i am not offended. But, don't you think it could be a little more constructive time well spent by you, if you learned to accept the differences. This will give you a better chance to move forward. Being diagnosed as such is whatever it is but its not horrible. What's horrible is how a recent sudy just proved that church goers are 90% more hippocritical than those who didn't attend church.

If you are simply a psyche student doing research forget the previous and could someone give me an avatar with a foot in the mouth.

Good examples of NT hand flapping can be found on game shows where the contestatn has just won the big prize. The local cable station here has a family getting cable phone service and the girl in the ad picks up the phone, flaps her hand and does an altered chicken dance.
This makes me wonder if the mechanism is the same for everyone, and NTs are just having less in the way of kindling for the stim. ASCs are more easily and intensely kindled and therefore stim more intensively and often. Examples that lead me to think of this include people's discussions of heightened sensitivity to things NTs never notice (a common example is clothing - tags or seams).

Nueroman sayeth,

When i think about a big prize, i'm reminded of the father in the movie; A Christman Story.
He was so proud of his harlot leg lamp.

In all earnest:

It would seem that these behaviors are universal, perhaps the defining difference is that NT folks know the appropriate social setting and the AS folks do not care.
Or as Neuroman avers;


Which, coupled with stereotypical handflapping, or delays or difficulties with motor skills, would lend credence to the idea that it may be control factors.
Heightened sensori stimuli (difficulties with motor skill +stereotypical handflapping, etc...)= uncontrolled physical reaction to stimuli.

So then it could be that a tic would be the same. When you get goosebumps and shiver. A sneeze. Sweating on a hot day. I know when i sweat, i really sweat. Basically, us people would have less control than NT people, perhaps to the point that ours is more noticeable because we cannot control the it even if the environment is not suitable for that behavior.
Like smiling in inappropriate situations.

If it is true that we are less in control due to heightened stimuli, do ASC children tend to wet the bed much later in age than NT children?

I do not know, can someone answer that, has there been studies?


The following is a reach; simply for arguments sake:
But it all stems from the same common foundation.

If all people demonstrate stereotypical physical reaction to certain stimuli, but NT can control theirs and utililize them only in social approppriate settings. I would venture that they also feel a desire to 'act out', as a result of stimuli at times when it isn't appropriate to do so, and they suppress the urge to do so. Controlling their motor skills.
Their denial could be argued as a lie.

Where as we just act either because we have no control over our actions or we have not the ability to lie.

So which is it Neuroman (BMF),
Our difficulty with dishonesty disallows us from controlling our physical urges.
or our inability to control our urges, makes us act honest.

Or are they both learned behavior from another Core symptom as yet discussed.

To much spinning in the noggin, we are tuned out.
Singular focus and drive, with other repetitive behaviors.
obsession
what, what out of all would be the primary to many other secondary reactions
Hedonistic desires and fullfillment (no Denial)



Dang Nabbit, i was going to pad my post count tonight and be concise. Apparently, i cannot control this either.[/i]

I seriously doubt that the difference between NT stimming and autistic stimming has anything to do with social acceptability. If all or even most NTs required the type of stimulation some autistics do, then it would likely be "the norm" for people to rock and hand-flap.

Autistics often have "sensory integration disorder" or at the very least, display some symptoms of it. The mechanisms relaying the senses themselves are normal (the eyes, ears, etc) but the way the brain interprets the data is flawed. This can cause hyper or hypo sensitivities, and can lead to difficulty in filtering out information (for example, not being able to hear a teacher speaking in the front of the room because the air vent is going from the side, and someone is tapping their pencil in the back). Stims are commonly referred to as being a way to regulate sensory input. People with sensory integration disorder who are not autistic display the same type of stimming behavior autistics do.

I know I for one tend to stim more when I am becoming overwhelmed or feel the need to focus. Rocking slightly makes me more aware of my own bodyspace and less prone to distraction from external factors. The same with staring at light reflections. It gives me a focus point that I do not think most NTs need. At work, I find myself quickly and aggressively tapping one of my feet, or drumming on my register counter, particularly during or after a loud crowd of people have gone through.

I will be back to respond to the two above posts when I have had time to sleep. Right now I have been up for 48 hours with tiny naps and so I think that I will go home and sleep first. Although it will be interesting to see if lack of sleep affects the ability to filter and/or control amount of kindling that occurs...
Think I'll go to the mall first.
I'll let you know.
Malls tend to make me stim.
I have been stimming a little past few hours anyway.
Hmmmmm.

Interesting. Thanks to all who have responded. The sensory integration stuff requiring stronger and more exotic stims would make sense. The autistics who stim the least, then, or in the least classically autistic fashions, are probably the ones with the fewest sensory integration quirks (I don't want to call these "problems" as they can likely give a very unique and beautiful perspective on the world and so would only be "problems" in certain contexts, like when the under-integrated senses are severely overloaded).

SB2, I am neither an autistic nor a psychology student. My only neuro-psychological diagnosis is ADD, and my interest in the subject is personal and amateur. If I did have autism, I would be more proud of it than ashamed of it if I thought like I do now; for a while I have had bouts of Aspie envy, wishing I could be as quirky, independent/unsheepish, and focused as a Spectrumite. Alas, I am but a wannabe, with inferior powers of focus and perception, although I do hold out hope in the flexibility that is part of the foundation of sheepness to compensate.

I agree with that explanation. For myself, stimming or fidgeting is almost always a response to some kind of stress or sensory overload and like you said, somehow it moves my focus away from the offending external stimuli so I can filter it out better. It happens automatically, not a conscious action, so I have to supress it if it's happening where/when it may be inappropriate (not that any of my stimming is real obvious or socially unacceptable but still, I have to be careful because I wanna make sure it stays well controlled - just my own personal preference).

As for how this all relates to NTs and why they do or don't generally have the urge to stim the way we do, I think sensory integration explains that one.

Last edited by neongrl on 14 Dec 2005, 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Rocking is for me very relaxing, and I do it nearly all the time when I'm alone (and not engaged in something that would make it impossible). So it's not just something I do when I feel overwhelmed; I also do it when I feel fine, just because it feels good and relaxes me. When I *am* overwhelmed, it's more pronounced, and I generally rock without trying to do something else at the same time (like read posts or translate or whatever), and I tend to curl up and "hug" myself more tightly.

Ooooooh... "Spectrumite". Nice word, Ghost.

Sorry, no sleep yet.
The opportunity may have been missed.
I did go to the mall.
I think I slept through most of it.
But I did notice a little NT style stimming. Playing with my pen.
Going to sleep now.