HOW DO YOU ARGUE WITH THE IGNORANT??????????

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If any of you are Bill Hicks fans, or at least familiar with his work you should be familiar with his exasperation concerning the reception of his beliefs.

"Come on man, is it me? You realise how frustrating it is being me? Where everything you say the reaction is this:
*stares incredulously upwards and speaks as one of his audience members*
"Are you the Devil?"
Nah, It's two sixes and a nine, alright, I'm bluffin'."

"We can call anyone? Well how about my f****n' agent and lets fire him together. Pittsburgh you bastard! Great crowds they stared at me like a dog that's just been shown a card trick!
"Bill, maybe they were all on thorazine.""

"Ok, that's just another joke that just DIDN'T GO, DID IT? Bill, just shut up with your little jokes, do mime."

"*As an ignorant audience member* We like our jobs Bill! We like the gruelling, in and out, 8 hours a day, setting the alarm clock, traffic, Bill, TRAFFIC, WE LOVE IT!"

"*As a chinese heckler* Why you not do dick joke? Do dick joke! People don't want to hear your philosophy they want to hear dick joke! Why do you have to try and change people's minds and people's beliefs? They want to stay in the crowd, they dont want to have beliefs. They don't want to rock the boat, they just want to hear dick joke then go hooooome."

Those were a collection of quotes from the late Bill Hicks about how frustrated he was, and I have to admit, I CAN RELATE TO HIM IN A BIG WAY!! !! !

Day to day, I find myself caught in a web of other people's ignorance. I find myself expressing my opinions and they are met with nothing but ignorance, hostility, dismissal and insults. I admit, that I do have a lot of very course left-wing views, and to the untrained ear I can appear as coming across as arogant, inflexible, childish and immature, but it seems people are never willing to look through the blunt nature of my words to see the message inside.

I'll give you an example. The other day my girlfriend asked me if I wanted to join her gand on the facebook application Mob Wars. An RPG application game that centres around a mafia based world, for those of you who are unfamiliar with it.

Now personally I don't bother with any of those applications. The only RPGs I play are Final Fantasy. And I amicably refused when she first asked if I wanted to join her gang. Since she needed one more member in order to defeat the new rival gang member she was up against. She mentioned that I didn't need to do anything active on the application, merely to add it, since it was the strength of numbers that was the element required for defeating her rival.

As time went on, she was relentless in her pestering of me to join, and again, I was refusing however my patience was wearing thin. I recognised the fact that I didn't have to do anything besides add the application, however I simply didn't wish to. The idea of the game is not to my liking and with all due respect I wish to never be a part of it. Inactively or not. My girlfriend however failed to grasp this simple idea.

The next day she had told one of my female friends about my refusal to join the game, and she had blindly taken my girlfriends alleigence and proceeded to give me the spanish inquisition about my actions. She began by sending me an instant message over MSN that read "Why are you being so mean to Maria?"

Now, as you can imagine, already I'm dealing with ignorance.

This rapidly transformed into an extended and heated exchange purely because neither my friend, nor my girlfriend could not grasp the idea that I simply did not wish to add the application. Insults in the form of "Why are you being so childish?" "Why are you being too flexible?"

On and on this went, my girlfriend, had since given up on the argument, since there was someone else to give me the 5th.

Can anyone give me any feedback on this issue? Was anyone in the wrong? Who was the ignorant one? Please, be honest.

Ignorance is a spectrum. No amount of arguing will alter the ignorance of others. I guess the best we can do is improve our own position on the ignorance spectrum. Which way is up?

very good point. this instance is just one example of the resistance i face towards my ideas and beliefs.

I try and explain my point of view and some of my friends have the habit of hesitating after I have finished then turning to someone else in the room and saying "So anyway, Cheese!"

I am fully aware that this is purely a diversion tactic to move on the mood to something else, but it really offends me coz I feel my voice is never being heard and I'm being cast asside and dismissed like a fart at a funeral.

yeah. from your girlfriends POV i guess the nature of the relationships suggests that you would humour or indulge her needs and your refusal can seem offensive or inappropriate given that it's a 'close' relationship. it's also that she is asking you to take her side, be on her side and so there's possibly a larger issue there too. in a partnership one is expected to do that.

i can totally understand your POV though! i hate the way NTs will badger and nag you and just repeat the same demands, regardless of the fact that you have seriously considered their request and rejected it.

the other thing is people just want to impose their will on you, it's NT human nature to do that.

any help?

I like how they are calling you mean for not playing a game you have no interest in (and constantly badgering you), and you are the childish one.

But seriously, it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong. As why she is upset, then, this is a shot in the dark, but maybe she feels not doing this one request is you not caring about her rather than you not caring about a Facebook app (I don't like them either). That is not to say you should have joined, but maybe there is just some miscommunication going on, and she needs to learn not to take things like that personally, and maybe you could figure out a way to turn down such requests while communicating that it is nothing personal. Small slights and movements can mean different things to different people, and be blown out of proportion. You see nothing wrong with not playing a game you have no interest in and don't like her using her friends to attack you, while she thinks you not playing a game is something personal, while it is entirely ok to bring her friend in the middle of this to do the arguing for her.

There is a lot of things I am taken as given, but the basic point is you may both be on different wavelengths on both parts, and may want to hash that out to prevent it in the future.

I don't really care about what people think. There's too many of them to try and change their minds. I prefer to just sit back and silently feel superior because I'm not one of the ignorant ones. That last sentence isn't sarcastic either, I'm being completely honest.

Plus, people like Bill Hicks wouldn't exist if it weren't for all the stuff he railed against. Life would be really boring if there weren't any ignorant people to mock and rant against.

It sounds like offensive behavior to me, and it sounds like your view is being dismissed in a manner not dissimilar to tolerantly pretending to ignore a fart at a funeral.

I suppose you discomfort and/or annoy others by talking in a manner that would require they either dismiss and move on, or think (perhaps even think deeply) but you please them enough that they choose to not dissociate with you. They could think objectively that you are less superficial, or simply that they themselves are lazy, but are probably more comfortable choosing to view your conduct in annoying, over-the-top, 'here we go again' terms, hence the 'cheese' to dismiss comment.

On the minus side, it seems instead of admitting a virtue you possess or a fault they possess, they turn your depth into a flaw and their shallowness into a virtue. On the plus side, if they really did not like you, they could solve the problem by just not having you around them.

It seems I could have written this, other than the Bill Hicks quotes. I have even had the same "Cheese!" phrase used.

I found that the best solution is to not talk, or at least not on any subject you perseverate on. It is especially hard for NTs when someone is going on about an elaborate, or taboo topic (religion, politics, or money). Plus most people don't want to think about philosophy or morals. I think they find it depressing or at least not fun.

Regarding the mob game I would just say its a matter of principle and that your mind is made up.

dang, you guys are awesome, I knew you would see through this.

I definately see all of your points. You guys definately are a big help. Thats the problem I have in this life. You guys are the only ones I can discuss this kind of stuff about without getting into a big argument or heated debate.

This of course brings up an issue I'm sure we have brought up on here before. The dilemma of whether to change for the NTs benefit by sacrificing our own individuality, or do we stand by our guns and not allow others to feel they have the right to demand that we change.

Personally I'm eternally swaying from one opposite of that conundrum to the other, and its one thing that NTs are always perplexed about me for.

I even went so far as incorporating this into one of the reasons why I had my entire vertebral column tattoed down my back, in exact placement and anatomically correct. That was to keep reminding me to have a spine. and not to be spineless. Given my deep fascination with biology and anatomy, to me, the spine, or the backbone is a symbol of strength, pride and fortitude.

Yeah, those sometimes silly friends. It took me a while to find friends who could get what I was saying too. I still can get the wipe aside on occasion though. After a look at the situation and a quick recovery, I am on to my next massive brain endeavor. Ready and willing to just let my heart and soul fly, and there they are, saying, I love you Alissa. Then the laugh of slight amazement and some sort of exclamation, and yet again, I am off on my next line of thought.

My small bits of relinquished thoughts in respect to my friends, are well worth the positive outcome, of the feeling of being free to be myself.

Riding the tide of space dust, Plan big, fall fast, bounce well.

Peace

I see, so there is no real reason to install this... other than it would make her happy. I doubt she sees this as you not installing some stupid little thing, but she sees this as a way to further herself in this game that does not really put you out.

That is just one of those times when you grin and bear a slight inconvieniance in order to make your mate happy. If you are unable to do this, things may start to crash and burn.

How do I argue with ignorant people?

Generally, I don't.

Usually, I just state the facts as I know them, and then wait for the inevitable "I-Told-You-So" moment.

Works every time!

In my experience, things crash and burn when they are installed for no good reason.
And then there is ... FACEBOOK VIRUS
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=facebook+virus

You win!

On the story with your girl friend. I completely understand. I probably wouldn't want to install something like that either. I don't like spamming my computer up with stupid software because it gets to the point where it starts running poorly because of all the junk installed.

Isn't it annoying how they have a double standard too? Do NT's ever humor you by participating in your own interests? No way. They figure that because they have greater numbers they have the right to coerce you into their activities but you can't make them participate in your interests if they're too 'weird' to them. Stupid group conformity crap.

QFT. It's also extremely frustrating that they expect you to bend over backwards to spare their feelings, yet they think it's perfectly okay to tromp all over your feelings, and say you're being childish when you protest.

I have to wonder at the quality of your "friends". I don't quite get the "cheese" comment, but I gather they're being dismissive of your thoughts and feelings. In my experience, real friends don't do that.

As for your girlfriend, I have learned over the years that it is much wiser to mind my own business when it comes to others' romantic interests.

All serious things aside I love Bill Hicks.

Seriously though, wouldn't it have just been easier to humor her? She wasn't asking if you wanted to sign up, she was asking you to sign up, for her. It wouldn't be that hard, you can't give a little?
I don't think it is a matter of her ignorance...