Why do we fail?

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The nature vs. nurture debate has been going on since the time of Rousseau and the consensus today is that we are born with a "blank slate" and that all we are is the sum of our experiences. But people with AS are clearly born differently. Some might like to argue that Aspergers develops from failed social encounters that occur upon entering the social world of school between the ages of 5 and 8 years old. However, it is clear that some symptoms of AS are present in infants(such as failure to cry for attention or play with toys) and AS seems to have a high rate of being passed down from generation to generation(My grandfather had undiagnosed AS.) It seems to me that people with Aspergers share some physical characteristics as well, such as prominent, pointy chins. Aspergers is passed down on an unknown gene and is not the result of a vaccine or a traumatic event that occurs early in childhood, although trauma can definitely exacerbate the symptoms.

People with AS don't have the power to make choices regarding their social development. No amount of nurturing or coaxing from parents or peers can turn an AS individual into a "social animal." The defining characteristic of AS is the inability to have a satisfactory social life. If we really believe that how we are raised is the sole basis for our development as people, than everyone, including those with Aspergers, would have great personal lives if that was what our parents wanted for us. My parents did everything they could to make me a gregarious, extroverted person, and their best efforts failed. If I had had a choice, I would have gone the direction that they wanted me to go but my inability to interact with my peers forced me down a different path. Most little kids with AS want to make friends(and usually at first kids want to befriend them), and their parents want their kids to have friends, but there is a disconnect in the brain that prevents early extra-familial relationships from forming. Even with all the cards stacked in one's favor, AS gives no chance to even be "average" in the social arena. We want to be gregarious, but we don't know how.

Clearly we are born different. We will usually enter the school system undiagnosed. Boys will begin to show signs of AS in kindergarden, but it remains latent in girls until about age 12. AS and NT males have the onus of having to show proficiency in athletics in order to gain the respect of male peers, and those kids who are awkward on the playing field have to suffer the humiliation of being picked last for games, which leads to the development of an inferiority complex. When an AS boy drops a ball on the field and incurs the wrath of his peers(who already regard him as nerdy,) he draws more negative attention to himself. Kids with AS(typically more gifted ones), thus focus on developing a special talent or hobby that becomes their obsession so that they can have a positive character trait to compensate for lack of friends or athletic ability. But we don't know how to regulate our obsession so our hobby becomes all that we do; All that time invested in playing the piano takes away from other things we have to do to keep abrest with our peers. Our peers start to pass us up and they begin to talk about more mature topics that our over our head, leaving us out from "the chain."

It is more appropriate for a young girl with AS, at least in elementary school, to get buy. That is because shyness, willingness to learn, being a "goody-two-shoes", and lack of interest in physical activities are acceptable for young girls. But AS boys come to school with everything inherent in a "Nerdy" personality that just invites social rejection and bullying. We don't realize when we are eight years old that it is not cool to like school, tattle, answer all the teacher's questions, or be a "Know-it-all." We are being ostracized and shoved into lockers but we can't comprehend why; all we know is that we are developing slower socially and nothing we can apply in our lives can change our peers' perception of us. As people, we see that we can't keep up with our peers in many facets of life, and worry that we will struggle in the future as the demands of the world become greater. It is overwhelming to keep pace with the changing styles, homework, bullying pressure, and parents expectations, so by middle school we just seem to give up.

Failure in athletics is where it all starts. That initial failure is the building block for all of the others. Inability to participate in sports leaves us out of essential male bonding experiences. All attempts we make to conform to teen culture fail; even if we adopt a current fashion or make an awkward attempt to make friends outside of our "league," we just come off as trying to do a dance without knowing the steps. Since we are not proficient in any conventional areas of being a youth, we decide to cultivate a unique talent that we falsely believe will gain us some acceptance in a circle. We think if we can impress girls with some unique talent, they will want to date us. However, we are severly delusional as to the true nature of teen culture. We appear to our parents and teachers to be extremely naive. To others, nothing we do makes any sense, even though our actions are completely rational to us.

By the time we are 14, we totally fall apart, having completely failed to entrench a spot for ourselves in this world. We do not even have a table at which to eat lunch. 11 to 15 years of age are "The Black Years."

What you're saying only makes sense if it is based in America.

If you were say... Japanese then you would excel.


But i'm being difficult and of course you are right, understanding the reaction an event will before everyone else brings a stigma.

For you to say those years are the black ones.. wait until you have a few kids and wife/hubby and try and feel sorry for yourself

You'll get there mate

I'm a little confused about the point of this post. Although alot of the experiences you've mentioned "could" be true about someone growing up with asperger's, I'm not sure that any of it amounts to some sort of "failure". Mostly what I see in this post is just a lot of over-generalizations. I'm assuming by your post that you are male (at least I hope so), and I have a feeling that your ideas of what it's like for a girl with AS growing up are going to meet a lot of resistance here. I only know one girl with AS personally, but I know from her experiences growing up that she would disagree with the statement that, "It is more appropriate for a young girl with AS, at least in elementary school, to get buy. That is because shyness, willingness to learn, being a "goody-two-shoes", and lack of interest in physical activities are acceptable for young girls."

I would never for a second try and marginalize or trivialize the experinces of a girl growing up with AS. I know that they have to go through many harrowing trials and will have many problems that their male counterparts don't even have to worry about. I was showing how an AS girl might "fly under the radar" for some time but AS males are immediately thrown in the fire. I do not think for one second that AS girls have it easy.

Yes, I am very much male.

No two people with AS are alike, and we don't fit into anything but the broadest of categories. I was just thinking about how early life experiences can snowball and what is at the source of our struggles. Everyone develops differently and has different experiences and luck, so you might not fit into the textbook scenario of what is supposed to happen to you as you grow up.

The thing that separates the school years from the other years is that you have no power on your own to make a conscious choice to leave. You have to keep going back, day after day to the same horrors. As an adult, you at least have the basic freedom to quit a job you hate or move out of your parents' house if you so choose.

It's a comparison so she couldn't really disagree because she doesn't know what it's like for a boy with AS.

Huh? lol I'm affraid I don't know what you are talking about...lol...I said that the girl I know would disagree with that statement because it would not be true to her life experiences. I didn't say that she would say it was harder for her than it was for a boy. I'm not trying to say that it's harder for one sex over the other and I don't think thats what the original poster was trying to say either, so what exactly are you saying? LOL Does somebody have woman issues?

delete this post please

To these from birth is Belief forbidden; from these till death is Relief afar.
They are concerned with matters hidden - under the earthline their altars are-
...
They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the nuts work loose.
They do not teach that His Pity allows them to drop their job when they damn-well choose.

Kipling - The Sons of Martha

...........................................................

Living in peace and contentment with AS seems to be all about the environment we are living in. We need to make our surroundings as accommodating to our needs as possible.

I think success and failure can be attributed to many things.

First, there is the fundamental matter of opportunity. African Americans claim that they have been denied success for generations because of their color, but history bears out that even in their own native culture, there is discrimination based on economic strata. The wealthy oppress the poor. In America, white males have known discrimination from day one if their families were among the poor.

There can be no debate that some people are born into situations where they have opportunity provided more abundantly than the average person. Likewise, regardless of other factors, the frequency of opportunity has much to do with the odds of being a success in life.

Second, there is a matter of skills. To have an opportunity but not the skills to make the most of it renders the opportunity useless.

For these first two, I don't think AS/NT has any relevance. There is something to be said about finding opportunity versus it being handed to you, but opportunity can happen to everyone in varying degrees of frequency. Likewise, anyone can build skills that could exploit an opportunity if the skills are right for the opportunity at hand.

The real issue I see that determines the odds of success versus failure is one of individual personality and temperament.

A child who is never encouraged to take chances tends to not take chances. A child who is taught to be fearful of everything tends to be fearful of everything. A child who is taught to be self-reliant and confident will be self-reliant and confident. AS or NT, much is to be said about how a parent raises a child.

Perhaps AS children get shorted because the parent sets low expectations and lets them coast by rather than encouraging them to make the most of everything they do have to offer. With proper counseling and therapy, a child with AS might have a very successful life because, in spite of AS, they learn to believe in themselves and achieve their goals even if it means working much harder than the NT person would have to.

>>It is more appropriate for a young girl with AS, at least in elementary school, to get buy. That is because shyness, willingness to learn, being a "goody-two-shoes", and lack of interest in physical activities are acceptable for young girls.<<

Boys also tend to "act out" more--which is just psychobabble for "misbehave". They often express anger more readily. Girls, especially those of us who are socially challenged, tend to withdraw. That was the case with me anyway. I was the Invisible Child. And now I'm the Invisible Adult.


>>When an AS boy drops a ball on the field and incurs the wrath of his peers(who already regard him as nerdy,) he draws more negative attention to himself. Kids with AS(typically more gifted ones), thus focus on developing a special talent or hobby that becomes their obsession so that they can have a positive character trait to compensate for lack of friends or athletic ability. <<

You know, I never experienced it this way. Of course, I am female and didn't have to suffer the wrath of my peers over a dropped ball. No, I had to suffer the wrath of my peers over nerdy fashion choices. Same thing, really. Anyway, the special interests developed of their own accord, mainly because I was interested in a topic and eagerly chose to pursue it. I was clearly running toward something rather than away from something else. I always preferred my special projects to the company of others, and I still do.

As for which gender has it harder, I vote "neither". While the AS characteristics may be more noticeable in boys and girls more readily learn to imitate neurotypical social behavior, social expectations are higher for girls. After all, women are the glue that holds families (and other social insititutions) together. So what I term the Social Deficit (or Difference) Gap (NT Social Ability Norm minus Social Ability of the AS individual (all theoretical constructs, of course)) is similar for males and females, and it's this gap that makes our lives difficult.

BTW, I agree with the OP that the adolescent years are the Black Years for Aspies. In fact, I would narrow the age range, the very worst age for most Aspies, to 11-13. Seventh grade (age 12) was hell on earth for me. I was bullied non-stop. In high school, my classmates tended to leave me alone.

I would have to say that all of school was pretty much the black years for me. Well not quite all. Perhaps from grade 6 or 7, up until my OAC year (Grade 13 for those of you not from Ontario, Canada - although Grade 13 doesn't exist anymore here)

Rosseau is quite dead, seems we are 50% genetics, 30% experience -- roughly.

Genetics are vulnerabilities, what we go through either activates these or not.

.

What I wrote about the nature vs. nurture debate:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt96552.html

First, a disclaimer: I am not diagnosed and my AQ is relativly low (24/50), then I probably don't have AS (perhaps "broader autism phenotype", or "schizoid disorder", or something like that).

But, in my case, I think that "social misjadjustment" (sp?) precedes "inability to participate in sports": with 10 y.o., in my first days of "junior high" (even before any attempt to participate in any game), the other kids begin to tease me (in a moment that they did not know yet of my clumsiness). I only begin to play soccer at the playground at 12 y.o. (before that I spent my time wandering alone by the school), and (in spite of the frequent "catch the ball, stupid!"...) this reduced the bullying/teasing.

In my personal case, I think the cause-effect process was these:


[intense daydreaming] -> [social isolation]

[social isolation] -> [bullying]

[bullying] -> [social isolation] and [daydreaming]